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V8 & \6 Trans write up tutorial
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57070		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  V8 & \6 Trans write up tutorial
DISASSEMBLY AND NOTES

So this is my write up and detailed approach to a slant 6 trans and V8 trans combination. I have read numerous post all over the web about V8 guts in a slant case. It can and has been done, however, what was never covered was whether the lock up from a later 904 (998/999) will also swap into the slant case. So that is what I set out to find out.

I'll also include what information I have found through various channels, links, and probly even a round up of similar posts here on .org.

One free copy of a 1986 ATSG for 904/727 88 pages total.
1986 ATSG manual

Abbreviations:
TC- torque converter
TCC- torque converter clutch
VB- valve body
L/U- lock up
Atsg- automatic transmission service group
VSS- vehicle speed sensor
L/R- low reverse

Trans:
A 1975 non l/u slant trans from a car.
A 1988 one wire L/U trans from a V8 d150.

I have torn both down so to examine each of them on a side by side comparison. There were a few differences noticed along the way and I will note them as I go along. So, hope you don't have dial up lol.

link for my images until I can figure out another way:

https://imageshack.com/a/dSJz/1


First the outsides of each trans:
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Note that the V8 tail housing is a bit different, slightly thicker but overall the same as the slant trans. One can also see diff brackets on the driver side, along with a VSS plugged into it for speedo. And just above it you can see the one wire for the TCC solenoid.

And for the front of them, or the bell.
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Here there is not much to note other than starter location, and that the V8 does have a smooth section at the end for the L/U. Non L/U trans will have splines all the way to the end. Torque converters do not mix between the two.

Now for the valve bodies:
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Only some small things here. Obviously the L/U tube and module which are the obvious one. Another one is the "trench" cut into the valve body. Differs slightly in the bends. Other small notes are "holes" in the bodies, slight diff but all the same. Both of them have the same holes on top and bottom for fluid travels into and out of the case. Probly not all of them flow the same ways or maybe at all since one is l/u and the other not. Noticed also the 75 has a bright yellow spring too.

And now for the case w guts but no valve body.
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Some things creep up here. The 75 has metal accumulator piston. And the v8 has a plastic one. The V8 has a double wrap rear band, some of the "ports" around the accumulator are different shapes, this was changed to accommodate the lock up solenoid. other than that they remain identical.

Up next the cases with no guts:
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Only real difference I noticed here is the rear sprag on the V8 bolts in while the slant is riveted in, so can't really unbolt it. V8 case also has threaded hole for the TCC one wire which is the same place I've seen lots of trans brake valve body wires put too. Some "ribbing" or case braces are present in the 75, towards the front ports. Also I noticed that the slant case has extra bracketry on the rear band mechanism since it isn't machined for the double wrap rear band.

Now for the tail shafts
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Here the only big difference is that the clip that holds the tail shaft onto the back is in different locations. On the 75 it was on the bottom and on the v8 it is on the side. The particular tail shaft that I have is talked about in my 86' atsg, it is beefier to go in the long bed trucks. Long beds take a longer drive shaft so more weight on the tail of the trans. So those looking for a re-enforced tail shaft here you go. It does swap onto the other cases. Seems that being on the side would be better as it would be less prone to leak. I checked both of them and the gasket supplied is the same regardless of which one.
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  FLUID FLOW AND PHYSICALLY SWAPPING VBs
FLUID FLOW

I have an 88 L/U VB and the 86' atsg manual that show fluid flow.
I also have a 75' case non L/U.
I noticed the holes in the accumulators for both are slightly different. I'm hoping that someone can verify if there will be a problem w the holes being different between the cases is going to cause an issue. I'm not skerred to drill a hole if needed.
I'll post some pics to show the differences between the cases.
Slant then V8
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Well I thought I had the pics from the atsg about fluid flow, I'll have to get them tonight. So for now the big diff is the 1-2 shift part which has a small 1/32" hole in the vb plate for it along w a hole into the accumulator area. As seen here next to the TCC solenoid.:

I'll make this post and get the wheels turning, then get the rest of the pics uploaded tonight for fluid path and which holes are on top or bottom of the acc piston.

Just need to know if I need to drill the hole for 1-2 or if I need to make all holes match etc.

EDIT FEB 13, 2015:

So I didn't get much on the fluid flow between the cases which lead me to go to the garage. I began by staring at both cases to understand what was where and how the accumulator piston fit in. I then took 1/8" blue hose and started feeding through the different ports so it shows where the ports are and where they stop and start. Pics for reference:
First one is inside trans showing holes in slant accumulator pocket.
Second is looking in the pocket at the holes.

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This one shows slant case pressure coming in and feeding more of the top of the accumulator piston and the test port.
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Cant really see this but it is going in pressure supply and comes out at the bottom of the accumulator pocket, also feeds test port.

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This is the v8 case with the path to the pocket that feeds the small hole in the valve body.
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This turned into a "screw it, I'll forge my own path" I determined that in the v8 case, line pressure to the accumulator was also applied to the small 1/16" hole on the valve body. Now in the v8 case it has a hole drilled to allow pressure to be applied. In the slant case the "tear drop" is sealed w no hole in it, which is where the 1/16" hole would end up. So out came the drill and a new hole appeared in the slant case from the line pressure to the tear drop as seen here:
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Which double checking, the tear drop will fit the hole.
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Now by doing it this way, if it doesn't work out then I can simply fill the hole with JB weld and figure out a different path.




PHYSICALLY SWAPPING THE VALVE BODY

When trying to swap the valve body it would hit the case. I couldn't tell at first where so I had to use some play-doh and "press fit" to find it. I knew it couldn't be much as the holes were close to lining up but not fully. So it turns out that the v8 case cast was modified to fit the L/U solenoid. This can be see in the cases as the slant has a "teardrop" cast that sticks out toward the middle and the v8 case doesn't have it, instead it is more rounded. Use the two pictures at the top of this section (valve bodies) to see the teardrop and rounded spot. So I was first going to clearance the case but didn't want to give up the flat machined spot for sealing, so I chose to first work on the cheaper and easier solenoid. Out came the corded hand held milling machine (grinder) and I ground down the mounting bracket. Turns out it fits like a charm now. So I identified where it contacts and how much I ground it, along w how it looks mounted.

The valve bodies pretty much follow a pivot point since the gear select mechanism sticks up through the case at the same place.
Pic one is lower right bolt hole
Pic 2 is upper left
Pic 3 is lower left
Pic 4 is unground solenoid
Pic 5 is how much to grind solenoid to fit
Pic 6 is mounting of solenoid
Pic 7 is where it contacts the case

For the visual learners:
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Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Reserved for kit notes
Ordered a tci kit and a trans go tf-2 kit separately. I have both of them and will do some details on both of them.

One thing to note was the tci kit came w a larger screen than trans go. Though it does have different looking mounting, one hole for newer trans and two for older trans. Both bolt up and holes work.

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Edit: Feb 15th 2015

So now for some more details and clarification. There are a difference between the newer transmissions and the older ones.

Slant six Dan has a more detailed explanation in his write ups here:
http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31863

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As he mentions, the Trans go kit comes with a paper flyer talking about the same thing. Now also note that they are referring to these as "hi-flow" filters but as Dan points out they are more of a screen than filter. It is recommended if you run this screen type that you should install a true filter inline.
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  KICKDOWN BAND & L/R DRUMS
KICKDOWN BAND

o one thing that comes up is the kick down band. The one that came w the tci kit was the standard one. It measures 18.75 X 1.3" wide. Now there's a small channel in the middle w out friction material but I won't calculate that.

Now out of my searching, reading, etc I found people talking about a wider one from a 360 which is rumored to be 1.75" wide. I never did verify this but I did find the reference from an article in hot rod about the A500 band which is 1.6" wide. So I ordered one, and it physically fits. It too has the small channel in the middle w no friction but again I'll leave that out.

Article in hot rod. It also mentions an A500 pan which is deeper- I did not verify this.
HOTROD ARTICLE

So now for the numbers game:
Standard 904: 18.75 x 1.3 = 24.375" sq
A500: 18.75 x 1.6 = 30" sq
24.375 / 30 = 23.1% INCREASE IN AREA!

If it can be verified to work:
360 v8 904: 18.75 x 1.75 = 32.8125
Or an increase of 34.6% increase.

Now for the pics:
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L/R DRUM

So the physical diff between a slant and v8 is the l/r drums and how they interact w the rear sprag. On the slant case the rear sprag has an internal teeth gear that rides in the sprag (removable) and then the l/r drum is fit into it. It has teeth cast into it that mesh with the gear in the sprag.

Mean while the v8 has a slightly diff sprag that has a cage to hold the rollers w no internal tooth gear. Instead the gear is press fit onto the l/r drum already. So the two do not physically swap between the two. Now I did try heating the v8 l/r drum to try and remove the pressed on gear but was unable to w the minimum tools here at the house. I was going to attempt to test fit it to the slant case and see if the gears were the same.

So the proof is in the pudding:

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Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Clutch Packs And Governor Differences
CLUTCH PACKS

This section will lead one through the clutch packs and setting them up according to specifications. Not a whole lot could be found other than some saying they prefer 10 thousandths per clutch or some like 12 etc etc. and thats all good they have said that but no one really clears up how its done. So here is how it works: (subject to verification, once verified by others, this disclaimer will be removed)

First you get your drum and remove the snap ring and spring so you can replace the two seals located underneath. (Not shown)

Then you put it back together and you will have this:
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After that you gather up all your clutches and steels. And get a copy of the specifications for what you are building. 4 or 5 clutch and front or rear drum as provided here from 86' atsg or found in your atsg from the download above:
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Now, you start w a steel then clutch, repeat. So if its a 4 clutch then:
Steel
Clutch
Steel
Clutch
Steel
Clutch
Steel
Clutch
Add another set for a 5 clutch. Once you have the last clutch in, its time for the real thick steel or the one known as the pressure plate. You can tell which one bc its obviously thicker as seen here:
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Once thats in, then you will choose a snap ring of certain thickness to get the tolerance you need. These snap rings come in 4 different thicknesses that I know of, and there may be more that the sages know of. Once the snap ring is in, then you will check the tolerance with feeler gauges and see if you are within tolerance as seen here:
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Now for the rear drum. It is a 4 clutch in my case so i begin with just the drum:
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Add the bottom piston which is beveled on one side. Dont mind mine as i machined it down. It allowed me to fit 4 clutches with plenty of room. The one on the left is the standard one:
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Then as before you start with a steel and alternate until you need the thicker pressure plate. These are important, one simply doesnt substitute a steel as these tend to heat up. Once the pressure plate is in, then its a snap ring, in my case a wavy one. This will help soften the park to reverse shift a little.
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Once thats in, you do as before and check the tolerance with feeler gauges. It is placed between the snap ring and drum casting, not in the high spots. Remember that when pressure is applied the wavy snap ring will flatten and thats why you need to check it this way:
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And there you have it, just have to play with the thick and thin clutches and/or steels (not pressure plates) to combine with certain thickness of snap ring to get within tolerances. Once you meet the tolerance you are good to go.

subject to verification and clarification by other who know and do more than I with the 904. Once solidified I will remove this. So, those who do these, please fix me if im wrong and ill fix this section.

GOVERNOR DIFFERENCES

So after following up on Dans word about the swapping of governors I decided to tear them apart and detail all I could. So here we go, slant on the top and V8 on the bottom:
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And with the pins pulled so as to get the weights out. There are some differences here in sizes:
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Specs are as follows:
Both measure .90" w the slant having a .40" wide machined spot and v8 having a .33" width.
Slant od 1.001"
Weighs 61.4409 grams
Spring .949" long
V8 1.068" od
Weight 70.9658 grams
Spring 1.101" long
Id for both springs .589"

And take both snap rings out to find that there are different springs on the insides. I used a caliper and held the springs in the jaws, slowly backing them off until the spring fell out. Best I could conjure to get a length with out subtracting compression of the caliper:

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Its been asked in some forums about upping the shift points on a 904, I would guess you could simply change the spring and affect the shift points. Correct me if im wrong. (Send me a pm w a link or data and Ill add it.)
Author:  65 dartman [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:52 am ]
Post subject: 
Great write-up so far
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Kickdown Band Heavy Duty Strut
KICKDOWN BAND HEAVY DUTY STRUT

This section will now be repurposed for use in explaining how to build a heavy duty piece in the place of the standard factory one.

The OE piece works and to what extent I dont know but I do know that companys make heavier ones as a replacement. Now the ones Ive seen didnt make too much sense to me as it would be thinner at the ends and really thick in the middle. To me that makes no sense but to each their own. So I set out to make a heavier one but a bit more simple.

First I measure the OE piece and it turns out to be:
Stock
L 2.72
W .83
T .125

So I then found some flat stock and cut it to match the length and rough width. Off to the garage to test fit and turns out to be too wide. So out came the calipers and measure best I could at .93" for the slot in the kickdown lever. So off to make it narrower. Milled it down to .91" so it would have a little wiggle room. Then clamped it to the OE piece as a guide for the slot. Now theres one on both ends but theres no need because theres only a smooth channel on the kickdown lever. There is a need for the notch so as to locate correctly on the kick down band. Once that was done i sanded all rough edges and now you have a heavier than stock piece for the "just in case" factor.

Heavy duty
L 2.72
W .90
T .240

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Author:  Louise76 [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
I've been afraid to open up a trans: no experience, no training, no knowlege. With your awesome write up & photos, I'm starting to understand more, and losing my hesitency. Thanks Ssg. P
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:49 pm ]
Post subject: 
By all means this is the same island I'm on. I have swapped trans, autos and manuals but never tore one apart. I was the same w carbs until I got the slant, I figured the best to learn (for me) is to read all I can on the web for a month or two and research every aspect I can, ask questions when I can't find the answer, then just forge ahead. I did rebuild a 1964 wheel horse 3spd manual here a few months back but that was easy. I take pics (obviously) of every thing. That way I have reference.

Oops, forgot to add a link for the atsg, 88 pages of fun but good intel. Give it some time and I'll have pics of the valve body apart and scanned copies of the shift kits and how they tell us to modify, along w a few other items. Don't be afraid, just get a spare one and take your time. I started this a mo ago or so and still not assembling, but want to make it right so that when I do the "how to" on reassembly, then it can be flowed step by step.

Added link for atsg, hot rod article and few small tweaks.
Author:  slantzilla [ Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Great stuff there buddy. :D
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Soo, took the two drums in w clutch packs to Dusty's transmission just south of terre haute. I wanted them to check the tolerances and if they were off to set them up right. Stated I wanted 5 clutches and 4 clutches, that there were 5 thin in one and 4 thick in the other already. Also wanted them set on the tight side of the specs.

Can do, just leave them here and come by tomorrow and they will be done.

Sure enough, showed up to get them and they had 4 and 4, all my clutches and some steels and snap rings in a pipe. Turned them over to look and it turns out they basically went in the back, pulled the snap ring and all my stuff and then put in all raybestos. Like wth? So I argued, paid only for labor and brought my 4 thick, only 4 thins, steels and all the raybestos stuff home.

I'm going to set them up again and order the thinner or thicker snap rings as needed. Needless to say, I will not be returning to them. So, soon you may see a post on setting up clutch packs and proper tolerances with how to measure them. :evil:
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:38 am ]
Post subject: 
Those that read this, please read through the clutch pack section (or any section for that matter) and let me know what needs fixed.

More to come.
Author:  olafla [ Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is an incredibly interesting, useful and well-documented write-up! I expect it will be a sticky, but I ultimately hope it will be made into an article for the article-section. Kudos to you, Ssg Pohlman!

Olaf
Author:  Ssg Pohlman [ Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Added more to the valve body section about fluid flow and ports.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Reserved for kit notes
Quote:
One thing to note was the tci kit came w a larger filter than trans go. Though it does have different looking mounting? Both bolt up and holes work.
Neither of those is a filter. They are screens, as used on the pre-'64 transmissions with external in-line filters. If you're not going to use an in-line filter, best install a real filter on the underside of the valve body.
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