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| No Oil Pressure https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57697 |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Sat May 16, 2015 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | No Oil Pressure |
Completely rebuilt 70 225 on test stand has new 5 bolt oil pump. Oil pickup has interference fit with pan. (75/76 pan modified to fit into 65 Dart) Prestartup---- 4 qts 30W pumped at oil pressure switch port location. 40 psi to pre-lube engine. Final qt poured over valve train. On start--- engine shows no pressure at gage mounted at normal oil pressure switch location after 10 seconds. (Same gage showed 40 psi when block being pre-lubed). Removed oil pump relief valve parts......light assembly oil film only. Removed oil pump cover & outer rotor..... light assembly oil film only. Rotated engine and inner rotor rotates. Possible causes include? Does pre-lube sneak back into the oil pump rotor area? Glad this isn't in car. |
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| Author: | Doctor Dodge [ Sat May 16, 2015 8:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Are you sure that the front oil gallery plug is installed? Maybe the pick-up tube is cracked at the threads and is sucking air? DD |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sat May 16, 2015 11:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Whatever the problem winds up being, get that 30wt oil out of there. It's wayyyyy too heavy; you will starve your brand new engine's critical parts for lubrication and do tens of thousands of miles' worth of wear in seconds. Use 5w30. |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Sat May 16, 2015 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Some picture documentation to remind me what I did |
Thanks for the quick response...all is helpful and greatly appreciated Oil Gallery plug in front was caught in this picture so I'm pretty sure I'm good there: http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... z.jpg.html Strainer had old threads cut off and SS adapter added to get some length and use new fresh strainer threads so I'm fairly confident there: http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=2 http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=2 http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=2 I'm cleaning up the old oil pump and maybe will put in for testing purposes until I get an idea. During the pre-lube I had to pump very slowly not to have pressures soar above 40 psi which suggests plenty of resistance in the flow of oil thru the block, bearings, etc.? Note I use a 33 Plymouth oil pump immersed in oil in a coffee can and slowly driven by a variable speed drill to get all the volume/pressure I could want. http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... e.jpg.html http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.jpg.html Although the center oil pump rotor rotates when the engine is cranked is there a possibility that there could still be an issue when buttoned up? Maybe a way to use a suction gun at the pump location to check the suction/strainer line operation?...with the pump off? |
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| Author: | WagonsRcool [ Sat May 16, 2015 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
If possible I'd pull the pump off & use some sort of syringe/hose to try & pull oil through the pickup screen. 30 wt is way too heavy. Standard 10w-30 should be fine for break-in. Did you do anything to "prime" the pump? Prelubing at the pressure switch port won't oil the pump rotors- the filter's anti-drainback valve prevents this. I usually pack a SMALL amount of petroleum jelly into the rotors to allow the pump to "suck" quickly during startup. If I'm feeling paranoid I'll pull the plugs & spin the engine on the starter (30 sec at a time plus cool down) until it builds oil pressure. |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Sat May 16, 2015 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I'll try every idea |
Pulling pump next. I'll try hooking up something that allows my suction gun to pull fluid thru the strainer from pump location after I lower oil viscosity I'll put jelly on the old 6 bolt oil pump since I also want to rule out the new 5 bolt pump temporarily. Finally I will pull the plugs and try an extended turnover with plugs out until I get pressure (after I pre-lube again). Then I can go back if things are OK and add plugs and start. Then I can go back and change pump....etc...one step at a time. Thanks for the ideas....I'll pursue them all. |
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| Author: | nm9stheham [ Sun May 17, 2015 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
You say ' interference fit with pan' for the oil pickup in the original post.... not a promising situation. Should be bit of clearance between bottom of pickup and pan. The baffle on the bottom of the pickup 'should' keep it open but we don't know how much of an 'interference fit' there is..... could be crunching it down and limiting oil entry to the pickup tube. The pump should always be packed with vaseline or a light grease before starting to help priming. |
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| Author: | SlantSixDan [ Sun May 17, 2015 9:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: You say ' interference fit with pan' for the oil pickup in the original post.... not a promising situation. Should be bit of clearance between bottom of pickup and pan.
Not correct. Read your service manual.
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| Author: | DonPal [ Sun May 17, 2015 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Interference fit effort |
Since I used a modified 75 pan (to fit the 65 Dart) and a 70 pickup/strainer I had hopes but not expectations for an interference fit but no such luck.....a finger could easily fit between the pan and strainer with the strainer centered in the pan bottom. This effort was done without the crank in so I could get measurements. I also was trying to get the whole portion of the strainer touching the bottom uniformly.....a trying task. So I purchased a SS m/f adapter that screwed into the block and allowed the strainer pipe to fit into it. Of course now things were too long and the strainer pipe had to be cut and threaded (see pictures provided). That meant new threads that were not worn or fatigued so that might eliminate the chance of a vacuum leak when the pump is pulling. I have already pulled the pump and made a 1/4 inch thick plexiglass cover to place against the block (with gasket). The cover has a threaded nipple fastened at the port location where the pump pulls from the pan. That gives me a chance to check draw tomorrow with my suction gun after I reduce the oil viscosity. I'll pump all the oil thru the bearings when I make the oil change just to be sure all the bearings are pre-lubed again. I'll be sure to thoroughly lube up the pump rotors with heavy oil or grease before putting on the pump after the above vacuum test....sooner or later the real culprit will make itself known but between us betting people that 5 bolt pump with press on gear is not very impressive especially when it comes the gasket mismatches. I'd like to pre-fill the oil filter some how.......maybe screw it onto an upside down pump and let the standpipe do it's thing when the pump is righted? |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Mon May 18, 2015 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Strainer And Oil Pickup Test OK |
Added reinforced 1/4 inch Plexiglas with port to check flow from pan: http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=5 Suction gun draws clear oil from pan OK; used it to pull all 30 weight oil from pan. http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=4 Filled inverted oil filter with 5W 30 oil and attached to inverted 6 bolt oil pump: http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=7 http://s296.photobucket.com/user/184pal ... g.html?o=6 Pumped in 4 qt 5W 30 thru oil pressure galley at 40 psi and will turn over tomorrow without plugs to try and get pumped primed (spark plugs out). |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Tue May 19, 2015 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Have 50 psi now |
After doing all the above steps including cranking without plugs for 20 second the pressure came up. Running...... the pressure is a steady 50 psi hot and cold. As to the cause for the initial no pressure I don't know exactly but it might lie in the above items and steps taken. I am not using the 5 bolt oil pressure pump at this point. |
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| Author: | johnnycuda [ Wed May 20, 2015 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Glad to see that you have oil pressure. Hope installation into the Dart goes well. |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Thu May 21, 2015 4:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Testing Next |
Thanks Before the installation into my daughter's car it gets a tune up and testing. Besides looking for leaks like a rear main seal (which might be hard to fix in the car) I'll put this on a Sun Computer II for analysis. (some of it's scope screens were in Dan's HEI article). I'll also be also looking into conventional items like fuel pump pressure and volume. Right now the timing mark is too jumpy (4 deg swing)so I'll rebuild another distributor first using the bigslantsixfan springs and short slots. I give my daughter spare parts to bring with her so this is a chance to get a spare distributor in her pile. I have a cam stop so I'm not expecting the new cam to be the issue. I did notice that all I could get for manifold vacuum after the initial tuneup was 19 in. so that must be investigated too. It was 17 initially until I got the valves adjusted. During that exercise I noted my valve adjustment valve cover was getting oil sprayed on each end but not much in the center so I'll be rechecking for valve train lubrication after running awhile. There is a popping in the exhaust (typical of plug wire cross firing) but the wires are routed with 90 deg crossovers, well separated and are new Magnecor 8.5mm solid core type so unless they have a defect I have to go looking elsewhere. Float wet level averages 1/32 below specs so that is not a contributor*. Carb adjustment is in the works as other things get checked off. Regulator smoked after a bit so I disconnected the ignition wire lead and checked the resistors...which were too hot. The list runs on and I have 3 weeks to sort it all out before the scheduled install...At least the engine starts with just a starter click. We all need positives.....Time to re-torque. *-engine test stand places engine valve cover angled 7 deg back but carb air cleaner 2 deg back. |
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| Author: | nm9stheham [ Thu May 21, 2015 7:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Quote: Quote: You say ' interference fit with pan' for the oil pickup in the original post.... not a promising situation. Should be bit of clearance between bottom of pickup and pan.
Not correct. Read your service manual.Great photos by the OP and glad you got it going. If you have an opinion of what most likely fixed it, 'twould be interesting to hear. |
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| Author: | DonPal [ Thu May 21, 2015 6:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Most Likely Contributors |
At the top of my list: Gasket on 5 bolt pump appeared to leak air between drive gear hole and pickup port...putting 6 bolt on was fix Flipping oil filter over and priming combined with flipping pump and putting heavy oil in before installing combined with sucking oil up from pan with suction gun and coating pickup parts with oil Finally cranking without plugs for 20 sec instead of giving up at 10 sec. with plugs in. pss: My 65 manual specifically calls for an interference fit |
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