Hi all,
Alright, so since my last adventures I ended up getting a nice recurved distributor from DI. I had been replacing the borked vacuum pod on the original one in my car and, probably because I was rushing to get things done, ended up shearing off some of the teeth from the nylon gear. I'd wanted to get a recurve anyway, so I guess it worked out.
Anyhow, finally got a chance to work on things this afternoon. Because I had turned the engine by hand a bit before realising the gear teeth were gone, I ended up starting straight over and finding TDC according to DI's directions as well as a bunch of stuff I pulled up on the site. After getting things set back to TDC, rolled the crank back to 5 BTDC per DI's instructions, installed the dizzy, rotor ended at pointing to the #1 tower as should be.

The below video (embed code didn't seem to want to work so I just linked to the photobucket page) was taken after getting everything back together and trying to start the car. On the first attempt (just before these two) it seemed like the engine caught for a moment and was just barely idling, very very low/rough, then died after about 20 seconds. These were the attempts after.

I'm thinking I might be just a tooth off, but I wanted to run things by you guys since this is my first experience with anything like this.

Thanks!

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... gfco5d.mp4

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Sounds like a low battery and timing a bit too advanced. Rotate the distributor very slightly clockwise see if it gets any better.

Battery wouldn't surprise me at all. It's the difference between advanced and retarded timing that I can't tell - thanks!

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Seemed to get better but still isn't turning over, and I let one of my friends borrow my multimeter so I can't check to see what it's actually putting out. Going to make some food and considering then removing the battery and walking it over to autozone for testing.

Here are a few more start-attempt videos if anyone catches anything. The first is from the first try after I rotated the dizzy CW as Reed had mentioned. Seemed like it wanted to start, but wasn't quite there. Rotated a tad more, then the second video.

Noticed then that there was fuel seeping from base of carb at the manifold gasket, so snagged my torque wrench and realised the bolts hadn't been tightened completely (I didn't have said torque wrench at the time of reinstallation). Wondered if that had caused vacuum leaks that would affect anything, so moved the dizzy back CCW a bit, tried again, which is the third video.

Still nothing, and I'm confused.

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... bxtl0j.mp4

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... cqn8tz.mp4

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... ofqc5j.mp4

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

That battery is dying! You need to charge it up before you can track down the issue.

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Looking for a 70 Dart Custom 4 Door.

FYI- not to be a persnickety ass, but terminology is important in diagnosing things. Your engine is "turning over" (i.e. the starter engages and the crank spins) it just isn't "catching" (i.e. firing the plugs and running without the starter motor).

Battery is definitely low, but I am wondering if the no start condition is not at least partially carb related.

Why did you pump it 11 times before trying to start it in the first video? Do you always have to pump it that much? If so, something is wrong with the choke or you have a vacuum leak leaning out the mixture. Even when it is really cold you should never have to do more than maybe two pumps (usually just one is plenty) before starting the engine cold. The pump is mainly to set the choke and fast idle and to add a touch of extra gas to help start the engine quicker.

I am also concerned about the engine catching and running but then suddenly and sharply dying in the first video when you tried to open the throttle. I am wondering if there isn't a vacuum leak somewhere.

However, in the first video the motor actually caught and ran, so I would move the distributor clockwise again, a touch more than you did last time, and see if the motor will start. That battery should have enough juice for a few more starting attempts in it.

Thanks, Reed, you're absolutely right.
Oh that's where I'm at too. What happened to that head against a brick wall emoticon?
Bad habit, I think. I normally don't that much, but the car had been sitting for a while without being started so my brain just went to "pump lots!" The PO said she used to have to pump around that many times every time she started the car, which may have gotten stuck in my head. I can't remember how I was with my last Dart, though.
There very well could be, and that's what I'm starting to wonder myself. But without being able to get the car started I have no idea how to try to track one down. The vacuum lines themselves are alright, though I have a funny feeling about the one that goes to the distributor - it doesn't slide off on its own but seems to come off at both ends pretty easily and I'm wondering if it's making a true seal. But I also am not sure if that would affect the engine catching at all.
The other lines seem solid though, and I haven't seen any huge gaping cracks in manifolds or carburetor.

But I am also starting to wonder if I shouldn't have just gotten a replacement carb in the first place.

The last time the car was actually running (more or less) what you described - the catching, running, then sharply dying on opening the throttle was how it was running - I mostly managed to keep it going with some very quick touches to the gas pedal (if I just slowly pressed the pedal down the engine would stall) to rev up the engine if I was at a stop sign or light, but then I'd have to keep holding the gas pedal so it would stay running smooth enough to get into gear to keep going - I don't have a tach, but those RPMs were uncomfortably high.

As for the choke, I do have an electric choke conversion kit from the place that Dan recommends, but the holes drilled in the base are just slightly too close together for where the holes are on my manifold, and the bracket that holds the spring to the carb doesn't fit right against the new base, so until I do two minor adjustments to the pieces I won't be able to install it.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Here you go!




Take out the extra spaces:



I keep it in my "banana room": http://smg.photobucket.com/user/slantsi ... ry/Bananas

The symptoms you discuss about when the car was running sure do sound like a vacuum leak somewhere.

Try this:

(1) loosen but do not remove all the manifold nuts and the three bolts (or two bolts and one nut) holding the manifolds together. Don't loosen them all the way, just enough to allow the manifolds to move against each other. Now retighten all the bolts and nuts using the manifold installation technique discussed here. The idea behind this is to reseat the manifolds to each other and to the head and eliminate any possible leaks between the intake manifold and the head.

(2) make sure the carb base gasket is in good shape and the bolts holding the carb down are snug.

(3) for purposes of trying to start the car, disconnect al vacuum lines form the carb except the PCV line. Cap the vacuum advance port.

(4) verify that the accelerator pump gives a healthy shot of gas down the throat of the carb. If the float bowl is empty from previous starting attempts, fill it with carb cleaner through the bowl vent.

(5) manually close the choke and set the fast idle screw on the second step of the cam.

(6) retard the timing a bit. The slow cranking you are hearing is cause by the dying battery but also by the spark plugs firing too soon creating back pressure that makes it harder for the starter motor to turn over the engine. You need to retard the timing so the spark plugs fire later in relation to the revolution of the crankshaft. Try retarding the timing about ten degrees.

Now turn the key and try to start it. If all is well, the motor should crank, catch, and run. If it doesn't, report back what happens.

BLESS.
Just to clarify on the last step - what is the best way to retard the timing? When I loosen the dizzy and move it clockwise/counterclockwise, how many degrees (roughly) does that give me to play with? When I set it in with crank set at TDC I made sure that adjustment bolt was roughly in the middle so I had room to move CW/CCW. Is the 10 degrees within that range, or should I reset to TDC, take the distributor out, roll the crank back, then reinstall the distributor?

Bless again, Reed. Step-by-step instructions are the most incredibly helpful things for me since I'm totally out of my depth on this one.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Are you still using the older slotted distributor hold-down clamp? Those only give about 15-20 degrees total play in the timing adjustment.

Turning the distributor clockwise retards the timing. Assuming you are using the older style slotted distributor clamp, I recommend you turn the distributor as far clockwise as it will go and try to start the engine like that. If it starts then you can set the timing properly. If it doesn't start you can listen and hear if it is hard for the starter motor to turn the engine over (timing too advanced) or if the engine is spinning freely and almost start (timing still too advanced but closer).

When I time a slant from scratch, I put it at TDC on the #1 cylinder on the compression stroke and I point the distributor rotor roughly at 4 o'clock pointing a the nipple on the vacuum advance pod. I try and make sure I have the hold down clamp in a place where I have room to rotate the distributor in either direction.

Yep yep. And cool, that's exactly what I did! At least I'm starting in a good place.

Will report back when I can.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

Ok, results:
Manifold bolts are, uh, rather set in their ways (lots of gunk caked in there, who knows the last time - if ever - they were taken off). I didn't want to risk cracking something by trying to loosen them, so for now I left it alone. Not the best solution, I know, but until I can get the car into a garage with proper tooling and the ability to really get in and work, it felt like the best way to go. I did look for any areas where the gunk would have been worn away by any leaks, and didn't see any, if that helps.

Capped the vacuum advance port at the carb with a bit of extra vacuum line topped with a screw and some tape.

Fuel is appearing, though it's difficult for me to see the actual shot I can smell it just fine (weee), I know the accelerator pump is new from the rebuild kit, sent some carb cleaner into the bowl vent.

Turned the diz as far clockwise as it would go.

First attempt, also hit the gas pedal twice (only! Promise! It happened as bloody habit that I need to stop), then tried to start. Here's that one.

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... hzvspd.mp4

Then I remembered something, and went to re-check the fast idle cam - the screw was set back on the first step even though I'd moved it to the second by hand. Reset it, didn't touch the gas pedal, started again. Here's that one:

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v43 ... oqxobj.mp4

I don't have a theory. I keep wanting to think the diz is in one tooth off and needs to be reset. I also noticed that the PCV valve has oil sludge around it. I don't think that's from the old valve cover gasket leaking, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions that that would be causing any of these problems. And after doing a bit of a search on here, it seems like though it would make things worse, it wouldn't be the actual culprit of a vacuum leak?



Thinking I should reset the distributor, but would rather wait for some clarification. As much as I'd like to get the car up and running again soon (mostly so I can take it to friend's garage and really dig in rather than do this side of the street stuff), rushing repairs has gotten me here so I'm very much trying to take my time and double check everything.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">

At this point I recommend recharging that battery. Your motor is turning over very slowly, but I suspect some of that is due to the cold (it looks like you have frost on the ground over there). Also, both those start attempts were pretty short. Usually it takes a longer cranking session to get an engine to start, unless the engine is in tip-top shape.

You may want to rig up or buy a remote start switch. This is nothing but a momentary switch that bridges the large and small terminals on the starter motor. If you have a remote start switch you can leave the key in "run" and try starting the car while you are under the hood. That way you can slowly rotate the distributor while the engine is cranking.

These are my recommendations:

(1) charge the battery. Drop it off at an Autozone for an hour long charge or leave it hooked up to a charger overnight.

(2) buy, borrow, or create a remote start switch

(3) remove the distributor hold down bolt entirely so you have more ability to adjust the timing

(4) use the remote start switch to crank the engine while you SLOWLY rotate the distributor clockwise. Keep cranking and rotating until the engine catches and runs.

The engine did start and run once, so you likely have spark, you smell gas so you have fuel, the last variables are vacuum leak, timing, and valve adjustment. But if the engine was running fine and you haven't adjusted the valves then they should still be OK.

One other thought- are you positive that you have timed it to TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder #1? I suggest this because it is an easy mistake to make. I have tried to set the timing with the motor at TDC on the exhaust stroke one #1 before, it doesn't work. The only way to be certain is to watch the movement of the valve on cylinder #1 as you rotate the motor by hand. You want to rotate the engine until you see the intake valve open and close and then stop rotating when the timing mark next reaches 0.

If you loosen the number 1 spark plug, and rotate the engine by hand, as the piston rises on the compression stroke (with both valves closed) you should be able to hear air hissing from the #1 cylinder past the spark plug (assuming there isn't a lot of traffic or other city sounds to mask the noise).

This will help you determine the compression stroke. Stop at TDC. Pop the distributor cap. Verify your rotor position.

Then you will be sure, and will have eliminated the need to give it another thought.

If you are sure the fuel pump is delivering fuel to the carburetor (maybe you can see fuel in a clear plastic filter that will melt in the event of a fire), Shine a flashlight down the carb throat while pinning the choke open, and verify a stream of fuel supplied when the accelerator pump is activated by the throttle.

Then you will be sure, and have eliminated the need to pump the gas pedal wildly ( and soaking your spark plugs so they won't fire).

I hope the humor is helping. We all want to help. We expect success. An understanding of each of your vehicle's systems will make you a mechanic.

Keep up the good work! keep the pictures, videos, and questions coming!

Neil

I've been asking myself this a few times. I found an old post, actually from you, which said "The "old fashioned" way to find TDC where you have no clue where your timing mark is/should be is to pull the valve cover and watch the valves on cylinder one. As you rotate the engine you will see the intake valve open (intake stroke), then close (compressions stroke) then the valves won't move for awhile (power stroke) then the exhaust will open (exhaust stroke), then the intake will open again (intake stroke) etc... You want to rotate the motor until the intake valve has closed and the exhaust valve is not moving. An easy way to check if you are near to TDC is to wiggle the rocker arms- at TDC the lifters should not be riding on any part of the camshaft lobe, so there should be no stress on the valvetrain and the rocker arms should wiggle side to side freely. When cylinder #1 is at TDC, the rocker arms on cylinder #6 should be tight and not moving."

I did so and checked the rocker arms - both lifters on 1 were loose, and 6 were tight. Is this the same for compression and exhaust stroke? If so, I will double check, just to make sure I'm not 180deg off. I knew the pattern of the valves going into initially resetting everything, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have made that mistake anyway.

Happily there's an autozone within easy walking distance - taking the battery over there now.

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<i>D'Artagnan</i>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/stephaniexchaos/dart/th_IMG_0326_zpsumhhfxi0.jpg">