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put a slant six in a 1947 Desoto ?
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Author:  mauser man [ Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  put a slant six in a 1947 Desoto ?

Has anyone heard of a slant six being put in a Mopar that originally came equipped with the old flathead six ?

I have access to a cheap, non-running 1947 Desoto and I think a 225 and auto would be a fantastic combo in the big old "D" .

Anyone have any experience with a swap like this ?

Author:  Guest [ Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

There use to be guy around here that had a slant in a 36 Plymouth sedan resto rod and it looked really neat ,a very clean install and unique especially in a sea smallblock chevys.I think that it would be extremely cool to put a slant in the DeSoto but it wll be a completley custom deal but well worth the extra effort.Go for it!!
Mark

Author:  budbandy [ Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

I am in the process of installing one into my 1948 Desoto S-11. It is a bunch of work, but will fit quite nicely when done. I am changing the wiring harness to one that came out of a 1979 Dodge Aspen. I plan on using the original rear end from the Desoto since it is a 3:73 ratio. Driveshaft construction will be unique, some old, some new. I may in the future change the rear to one off the Aspen, but it will require some fabrication to make it fit correctly. Another thing that will require to make it work, is engine mounts and transmission crossmember, I have not made it that far yet., looks like the original crossmember will have to go. I also have been looking at the steering tie rods.......the Aspen /6 oil pan may not clear it. I have been considering utilizing a rack out of a Chrysler minivan for getting the clearance required.

I am taking photographs as work progresses. After it is complete I am hoping to have a web page from the beginning to end. My work will be coming to a short break...I will be going to Kazkhstan for Uncle Sam for a few months. When I come back I am hoping to get back knee deep into it.

Also in the "article" section of this site, another individual has one installed into a 1941 Doge sedan. Look under "fuel injection for street rods"

Author:  Tim Keith [ Sun Jun 01, 2003 2:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have a '47 S11. I will keep the flathead in mine. I would like to use a 265 crankshaft in the block if I can find one, the 265 were only built for a short time in the '50s. The larger motor ought to have adequate torque.

Mine has the original 'Tip Toe' semi-automatic(four speed), the Fluid Drive transmission is a performance handicap that I'll live with. My car is original and complete, I don't see many of these, I want to keep my Custom Coupe stock appearing.

Author:  mauser man [ Sun Jun 01, 2003 4:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

Bud, the correct answer is "Yeah dude ! It's a piece of cake !" :wink: . Wow ! I was hoping it was fairly straight forward swap. I know 1959 and 1960 Plymouths and Dodges used the same body & frame those two years even though '59 was the last year for the flat head six and '60 was the first year for the slant six - I was hoping maybe motor mounts were the only major change.

I don't know that the flathead six is bad but since the car was last started in 1962...... :shock: :? :?: .

I've had a 1964 Dart tudor post, 1970 Dart Swinger hardtop, 1968 Valiant tudor post, a 1969 Valiant four door and a 1971 Satelite tudor hardtop - all with slant sixes. I love the Slant Six - especially the 170 ! The 225 is okay but it's a bit "trucky" for me. I helped a friend tear down a slant six about 13 years ago - freakin' thing had worn the cylinders egg-shaped and was still running !

A local salvage came up with a 1975? or so Aspen that had the 225 and four speed a few years back - I could have bought the whole damned thing for $100.

Guys, thanks for the advice - ya'll run an awful friendly forum 8) . Will ya'll still speak to me if I tell yens I've got a 1964 Fairlane under the carport :wink: ?

Author:  budbandy [ Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

I wish I was able to tell you it was real easy to do, sorry. The engine is held in the original configuration by way of front mounts and the rear is held up around the trans bell housing. It looks to be an easy swap providing you have the tools and patience. I thought long and hard about this swap (almost 5 years) Just like Tim, I want to keep the flathead, but the transmission choices are few. Eventually I will find or fabricate a transmission adaptor to use a Chrysler trans, until then the /6 will suffice.

There are however, quite a few places to get parts for your flathead:
http://www.edgycams.com/ (head and cam)
http://www.inliners.org/Advertisers/kkk_ad2.html (exhaust manifolds)
I can't find the link to the dual intake, but they are still available.

Here is one that has been built:
http://home.rmci.net/blueskies/02-engine.html

There is also a way to convert it to Chrysler electronic ignition, using parts from a /6 and v8. I can't find the link at the moment.

Author:  Doc [ Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  More on Engine Swaps

Doing "one-off" engine swaps are always challenging just because you will have to make-up some custom stuff and that means doing some "engineering" / lay-out work and then fabricating the needed parts.

For your swap, two different approaches can be used:

1) Swap-in the SL6 engine / trans as an assembly, the early (60-65) cable shift, pushbutton auto. can be a timesaver because the shifter is "self-contained" and the cables allow some location / mounting flexibility.
The oil pan sump location is the other main item to look at. After that it is simply a matter of making-up the mounts and hook-ups.

2) Swap-in a complete SL6 engine, trans and transverse T.bar disc brake suspension assembly from an F-Body. This is a unitized system that can be rolled out of one vehicle an under another quickly, but then all the mounting has to be welded-in. This is the way to go if the older car has an out dated or missing front suspension system. Go look at an old Aspen Volare for how all this works
DD

Author:  Tim Keith [ Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

The '47 DeSoto uses "Floating Power" mounts which is similar to a motor plate that mounts on the front cover, the difference is the weight of the DeSoto six is suspended on heavy rubber fabric. The actual mounts are a large inverted "U" with the feet sitting on the car's frame, the front timing gear cover is accessible thru the center of the "U", the water pump is located on the top of metal arch of the Floating Power system. This leaves the entire sides of the motor free of mounts, everything is very accessible on these motors.

The 265 is the motor I'd like to use, except for the crankshaft and connecting rods it is identical to the 236 flathead six that is in the '47 DeSoto. I've been told that a good place to find a 265 is in Massey Harris farm machinery as Chrysler sourced its motors to M-H. The 265 six were installed in cars during the early 'Hemi' era, some were used in mid-sized trucks.

Unfortunately for the flathead the development of speed parts ended with the introduction of the V8. Most focus was on the smaller and lighter Dodge and Plymouth motors. The big six didn't get a lot of performance parts development. For the most part the speed parts of the small Mopar six are limited to various high compression alloy heads, intake manifolds, and reground stock camshaft.

A relatively unexplored option on the L-head motors is turbo charging. The '47 motor has 6.6:1 CR, by the late '50s these motors were running 8.5:1 CR. On paper a '59 230 Mopar L-head six has about the same horsepower and torque as a 225, but the 225 has a broader operating range which makes this motor feel much more responsive. The old motors are strong enough to handle turbo charging, but few people have attempted this. Most high performance build ups on the Mopar flatheads use nostalgia parts with designs more than sixty years old. The crankshaft and bottom end of the flatheads are similar to a slant six, but they can benefits from cross-drilling the journals for better oil flow. The mythology of these motors is that they will throw a rod when you spin them too hard because they have "soft" crankshafts. The Mopar literature states that the cranks are forged high strength steel, without any mention of the specific alloy used. I believe minor improvements in the oil system can allow these motors to live at higher RPMs. But without better breathing the L-head won't make much power at high RPMs (relative to a slant six). I believe a turbo could really help one of these motors, make gobs of torque under 3,000 RPM.

Another thing to do is give the motor better transmission gearing. The narrow, but deep torque band needs a five speed. Most five speeds have an O/D, which is an added beneift as a 3.9:1 axle to 4:10:1 was common in cars of this era.

I thnk you can make the L-head perform, but you'll be on your own for a lot of the mods.
The 236 DeSoto has 8 inch rods, swapping in the 265 crank gives you a half-inch increase in stroke(lots of torque). I have looked for modern pistons to fit ths combination, someone has said that Chevy 194 six pistons will work with the 8" rods and 265 crank combo, but it requires a .150 overbore. I'm afraid of head gasket problems with that much overbore.

Author:  budbandy [ Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have the Volare front suspension and want to use it.....but there is a great deal of fabrication required. The way that the springs and bumpers sit inside the frame make it a real bear. It is however very similar to frame widths.....just have to cut from the springs forward and fabricate a mounting area for the bumper. I may use it....but with rebuilding the engine, rewiring, and installing the Aspen A/C system, it is already a bunch of work for me!

Author:  Tim Keith [ Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

You can get a Fat Mans front suspension for that car that'll fit easier than the Volare. A lot of people don't know that the Volare has poor suspension geometry. In fact, the '47 DeSoto suspension is as good as the Volare. Each have bump steer, but the bump steer that you already have is a cheaper bump steer than the bump steer you've got to install!

Many old cars get new front suspensions because of steering, it can be very expensive to rebuild the original steering box on these cars, and you still won't have power steering. Another car gets Volare-ized. I don't think DeSoto got power steering until '52, there are kits to retrofit older manual systems with power assist, but it might be easier and less costly to use the Volare parts.

Author:  budbandy [ Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:18 am ]
Post subject: 

That is why I am considering using the rack off of a minivan. This way I will have power steering and oil pan clearance. Just like Tim says, the Desoto does not handle all that bad, it does however need a sway bar and better shocks. It is not cornering machine at all, some serious body roll! I am also considering making some brackets to adapt the front calipers assy off the Volare onto the spindles, so I can stop this beast. Whatever route you take, it will be an enjoyable automobile when complete.

Author:  kesteb [ Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

Tim, I think you need to stop over at the inliners board and read the long and detailed flat head entries in the "mopar" section. There is a gentleman that is using the 230 in his tractor puller. His engines are developing enough power to shame much larger ohv engines. He has a especially detailed entry on how to setup the dual 1v manifolds and B&B carbs. Very interesting reading.

Author:  Tim Keith [ Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

I am familiar with the postings of 'Hudson' on the Inliners group. He runs a custom built competition tractor with a Dodge 2 ton truck axle and a 230 flathead. He claims to achieve more than 200 hp normally aspirated with RPMs peaking at about 6,000, with no durability problems thus far. He said the critical factor is carefully prepping the crankshaft for better oiling.

The flathead motors have an extremely efficient valve train, no 4-valve race motor has a lighter valve train than an L-head. No need for heavy valve springs. L-heads respond to porting and larger valves. The pistons are an stumbling point, they have almost 2 inch compression height. Running the 218 L-head rods in the 230 will give you a longer rod, but still not long enough to run modern off-the-shelf pistons. KB makes a good cast piston for these motors, but I wonder whether a lightweight 3-ring design might make a difference.

The motors are fuel efficient and can be smooth and ultra quiet, the lack of valve train components helps make the L-head motors whisper quiet compared to complicated modern motors. I figure that a turbo can overcome the inherent valve shrouding that limits the L-head, but mostly these motors are limited by their small displacement. They were used in largish applications, often quite large trucks. With a peak torque at 1,200 RPM they are stump pullers which need better gearing for todays highways. The L-head torque curve is like a small diesel, strong, but in a narrow band, better gearing helps keep them in their power range. The L-head is a compact design, a slant six requires more space. I was surprised to see the Toyota Supra 7MGE has the same bore spacing as the 230 Mopar L-head, I would have assumed the antique Mopar would have been much larger. The L-head is heavier, but with an alloy head the weight is no more than a modern motor.

Author:  mauser man [ Tue Jun 03, 2003 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

Do the Mopar flathead sixes come with an oil filter ? I've run across a few old 235 Chevys (usually in Biscaynes and Bel-Airs) that were built witout a filter unit - I've also seen one converted to the toilet-paper filter set-up. I never thought that a roll of Charmin was adequate filtration :? .

Author:  Tim Keith [ Tue Jun 03, 2003 5:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

All Mopar L-heads from '33 on had oil filters. I believe some of the later 230 L-head motors have full-flow filters. The Chrysler and DeSoto 25" sixes were given full flow filters earlier than the Dodge and Plymouth 23" models. The bypass filters are messy to replace the filter element, but otherwise work fine. The Mopar flatheads are relatively advanced compared to the Chevy. Whereas the Chevy had poured babbet bearings the Mopars always had replaceable bearing inserts. The "cast iron wonder" Chevies had splash lubrication until the '50s, even the Chevy pistons were cast iron.

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