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'63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
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Author:  63valconvert [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Hi,

I will follow this post with pictures when I get back from work, but my mechanic is saying he's tried a number of replacement starters for the one on my 1963 Valiant, and says that none of them "reach" far enough to actually turn the engine.

Is there a part number, or a specific starter model I should be looking for? Kind of surprised here, as I expected that these starters would be pretty much the same across the board.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Is your '63 a Canadian-built car? If so, its starter is different to the US type. Count (or have your mechanic count) the number of teeth on the old starter's drive pinion. If there are nine, that's the Canadian-type starter (which was also used on US '60-'61 Slant-6s, so if your '63 received an engine and/or transmission swap in its past sometime, and the parts came from a '60-'61 car, that puts you in the same position).

What to do about it depends on what's the trouble with the original starter and how much/what kind of effort and expense you want to go to to fix it. But before jumping that gun, hope and pray your mech didn't hand in the original starter as a "core" and count its drive pinion teeth. Once we have that answer, then come the solutions.
Author:  63valconvert [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Sweet. SlantSixDan in the place! :D

Well, it is a US built Valiant, but spent most of its life in Canada, and yes, this probably does explain the problem here.

Mechanic has kept the original, but couldn't get anything to replace it. He is going to pull it off the car again tomorrow to count the teeth, but this all makes sense.

So, from here... are there replacements available? Rebuild kits?

I'm curious what I should do if it's confirmed (and boy, would I NOT bet against) that it is this early starter type.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Likely had an engine/trans swap in Canada, then, with local parts.

If there's still a competent rotating-electrics shop in your area, have the car's starter overhauled. Parts are still available, including complete new starter drive (Bendix drive) units, and that's a wear part that would want replacing in the course of the overhaul.

Or, buy this already-overhauled 9-tooth starter, drop it in, and go. Motor housing of this MDT-7009 might look slightly different to that of the MDT-6016 or MDT-6017 probably installed in Canada, but it's fit/function interchangeable. Or this one.


Another option:
Ring IMI Performance in California on 562-907-9400 and tell them you need an IMI-GT9/25. That is a 9-tooth drive pinion for the Nippondenso mini-starter. It's $15ish (as of a few years ago) and includes the retainer, spring, etc. Then get this shelf-stock Nippondenso mini starter, have your mech replace its 10-tooth pinion with your new 9-tooth item, bolt it on, make any necessary changes to the starter circuit (depending on what was done when this car got its Canadian setup swapped in; you may need to add a starter relay, or the factory-installed one might still be on the firewall) and go.

Oh, you'll need the correct stamped-steel starter "seal" (don't call it a "shim" or you'll get in dutch with god and Walter P. Chrysler) that goes between the starter and the bellhousing. The one for the Canadian/direct-drive starter has a much bigger hole in it and won't work properly with the smaller nose on the new starter. The correct "seal" is the one used on a zillion Mopars with the Chrysler-built gear-reduction starter. That's this piece.

Be advised, if you put in the mini starter, the car will crank over good and fast, but it'll sound like a generic late-model car while doing so. If you don't mind, that's fine, but if the sounds of an old car are part of the experience for you, you might not like that.

In any case, save the take-off starter from the car. Those are getting scarce, and people who really need one…really need one.
Author:  hyper_pak [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Very well said Dan.
Very good advice
Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
So in essence those transmissions used a different ring gear on the flywheel / torque converter?

I would sure like to see some pictures of this starter for my education.

I guess it is a totally different unit than the direct drive on my Dad's '63 Dart GT he sold a few years back?
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Wed Jan 15, 2025 6:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Quote:
those transmissions used a different ring gear on the flywheel / torque converter?
Yep, the two applicable ring gears are as follows:

Chrysler p/n 2121 195 (ATP ZA-545): 148 teeth, for use with 9-tooth starter

Chrysler p/n 2121 196 (ATP ZA-505): 122 teeth, for use with 10-tooth starter
Quote:
I would sure like to see some pictures of this starter for my education.
Click the links for the already-overhauled starters I pointed at above. These starters were built by Prestolite (calling themselves "Auto-Lite" at the time). Here's the FPC explod-o-view:

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Quote:
I guess it is a totally different unit than the direct drive on my Dad's '63 Dart GT he sold a few years back?
Donno, your pic didn't post! :mrgreen: There was a Chrysler-built direct-drive starter, some versions of which will replace the Prestolite starter. The Chrysler direct-drive starter is a solenoid-shift item, not bendix-drive like the Prestolites. That Chrysler "tin can" starter, as it was known to rebuilders because of the big round solenoid perched on the motor housing, was used on Slant-6s in trucks and heavy-duty passenger cars (taxicabs…) with the 11" clutch. I saw one in a Slant-6/automatic '71 Valiant in a wrecking yard many years ago; no idea why that car had that starter, and it looked like a factory install. The '70-'71 FPC says they were used on B- and C-body cars "heavy duty, w/manual trans", but not on any automatics, so who knows why that one I saw was in that '71 Valiant.

But I'm glad you mentioned your dad's '63 Dart, because I'm newly reminded the '63 FPC does say the Prestolite MDT-7009 direct-drive starter, that's the same as the '60-'61 starter, was installed on Slant-6s in some US-built '63 A- and B-bodies. I've never seen such a one, but maybe your dad's was. Perhaps the OP's car, too.

Breakout for this FPC extract:
2095 150: Chrysler gear-reduction starter, series-shunt wound
2098 500: Chrysler gear-reduction starter, series-wound
2095 393: Prestolite direct-drive (Bendix) MDT-7009 starter, same as 1889 770
2095 753: Chrysler direct-drive (solenoid) "tin can" starter
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Author:  Greg Ondayko [ Thu Jan 16, 2025 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: '63 Valiant. Unique starter or something? Mechanic clueless about replacement
Thanks Dan,

I don't have any pictures of my mentioned starter to share. Just the car itself. But I did not post any pictures for this one.

Greg
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