Slant Six Forum
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Turbo Info needed.
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7945
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Author:  Dartvader [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Turbo Info needed.

I'm in the middle of my EFI conversion, and am thinking NOW is the time to do the turbo thing, simply becuase I am fabricating new headerpipes now, and see no sense in doing it twice. I need advice. I have worked on my brother's 2.2 turbo, and it seems very straightforward. The simplicity of this setup really encourages me to proceed with the slant turbo.

Here are several questions: How have the previous slant turbo installers dealt with the return oil line? Have you tapped into the block somewhere, or into the oilpan? It seems one might be able to use the dipstick hole some how: maybe give it a dual application. Pehaps you could put a fitting in the dip stick hole that has a 'T' in it to accept the return line's oil flow, and still accept the dip stick. How can you run the oil pressure line to the turbo. Could this be 't'd off the oil sending unit somehow? These are serious issues that I am sure others of you have dealt with. The coolant line seems fairly staight forward, although maybe there is some advice out there on that also.

Do you know of any good web sites out there that could help?

Any dealers, or aftermarket sources you can recommend? Any models to move toward, or stay away from. I am thinking new or rebuilt, not junk yard. Any specific applications that are a good value, and good fit for the slant? I am thinking 8-10 pounds of boost.

Are the turbos typically entirely mechanical in naturel or is there an electronic component to their control. I am using the mega squirt computer, and don;t know enough about it to know it there is a turbo interface involved. Thanks in advance for any and all info, opinion, or feedback forthcoming.

Author:  Matt Cramer [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Some turbo info

My setup has a turbo line tapped into a hole drilled next to the dipstick tube in the block. Drilling and tapping the hole was pretty easy, and I stuck a 5/8" heater hose barb in it. The trouble with this arrangement is that there is virtually no room for the line; my turbo is mounted low and close to the block. It took me weeks to find a satisfactory way to connect the turbo drain line to the hose barb, as I had to make a line that took several tight bends and install it in a space I could barely get my hand into. I am never going to attempt an oil return that goes into the block unless the turbo is located more than 8" above the spot where the return line goes. This is doable, but you must leave yourself enough room to work in. I didn't.

Also, the dipstick hole is nowhere near large enough. You'll want a return line in excess of 1/2" inner diameter. The oil returning from the turbo is quite foamy and narrow passages could easily get plugged.

Supplying the oil is much easier. The oil pressure sending unit threads in with a standard NPT pipe thread - I believe it's a 3/8" thread, which is not really 3/8" in diameter. Just get some pipe fittings and make a tee. I did have to grind the brass tee fitting for clearance, though. The turbo K-cars are actually set up this way from the factory - although their oil line tee doesn't work on a slant six, I've tried it.

You can use an electronic boost control, but purely mechanical / pneumatic ones are certainly quite workable. Check out Gary Donovan's site for more information on boost controls. A Granger Valve setup will be about as responsive a boost control as you can get, and a lot cheaper than many aftermarket setups.

If you're getting a new aftermarket single turbo, you should be able to get the compressor maps. Information on how to read these pops up everywhere - Hugh MacInnes's <i>Turbochargers</i>, Corky Bell's <i>Maximum Boost</i>, some recent issues of <i>Hot Rod</i> have had articles on it.

I hope this helps. If you have any more questions, I'll do my best to answer them. Good luck.

Author:  Bob D [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:33 am ]
Post subject: 

Vader,
I used a ¼" supply line tapped between the oil filter and oil pressure sending unit with a "T" to feed oil to the turbo (turbo is from a '85 Buick in my case). For the return line I got an adapter from Road Race Engineering ( www.roadraceengineering.com , Garret oil drain flange with 5/8" hose barb fitting, $13) that attached to the oil return on the turbo. This allows the use of a 5/8" hose in place of the metal return line that was used on the Buick turbo, but which was not suitable for my application. I used an AN-10 braided hose for the return line. The return line relies on gravity and because the oil from the turbo is "foamed up" and not under pressure after passing through the turbo, the hose should be at least 5/8" in diameter. For this reason I would not use the dipstick hole. In my opinion the most practical place for the oil return is the oil pan. I found the best place to drill a hole in the pan was through the hole in left front motor mount. I used this location because it was the only place above the oil level in the pan that I could reach with an electric drill. I drilled a ½" hole at this location and "self tapped" a 1/2" pipe nipple into the hole. I fitted the pipe nipple thread that tapped into the pan with a "nut" from a ½" electrical pipe and used an oil plug gasket to seal the fitting from the outside of the oil pan. I then used a ½" pipe coupler to attach a ½" pipe thread to 5/8" hose adapter from Home Depot to the coupler. Doing this brought the nipple out far enough that I could easily attach the hose with a hose clamp. This seems to work very well with no problems during the first year of use. To make the hole I used a hole saw that retained the drilled out plug. Of course these don't always retain the plug but I doubt that the plug in the crankcase would cause a problem. I used a couple of cans of engine flush to flush out any metal filings before adding fresh oil and running the engine. You might be better off removing the oil pan to do this. But on my car that would have require removing the steering linkage.
I felt that it was important to use a turbo designed for an engine the same size as my 225 CID SL6. This would ensure that the turbo will be reasonably efficient and will not introduce excessive heat into the intake air. Also, 10 lbs. of boost from a smaller turbo doesn't translate to the same HP gains as a large turbo with 10 lbs. of boost. This is because the smaller turbo will not only create more heat but also more exhaust backpressure and consequently introduce some additional power loss. I got my turbo from a junkyard. Any turbo that you get from a salvage yard will most likely need to have the center section rebuilt. You can purchase rebuild kits, or you can purchase an already rebuilt center section. The rebuild kits do not include the turbine and compressor wheels. The rebuilt center sections do, and in my opinion this is the most cost-effective way to go. The re-built center sections are referred to by the acronym CHRA (Center Housing Rotating Assembly). I purchased mine for $125 from MJM Auto Parts, Inc., 11535 Sipsey Valley Road North, Buhl, AL 35446 (800-331-0616). This was by far the lowest price that I have seen and they had center sections for many different applications. I have often seen "core" turbos on the Buick web sites ( www.turbobuick.com and www.turbobuicks.com ) for as little as $50. Of course you'll have to add in the cost of shipping a 20-pound turbo. Be sure that any Buick turbo you buy includes the exhaust elbow. Also, if you go with other than a '84 or '85 Buick turbo, check with MJM to be sure they have a CHRA for the turbo you are using.
I don't think you have any options for electronic control of the turbo with a MS ECM. However, the GM ECM does provide for knock detection and the subsequent control of ignition timing as well as boost control through a wastegate solenoid.
Bob D

Author:  Dartvader [ Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thanks guys! I will pick up Maximum Boost soon. You have been a big help. Any other turbo web sites that might help? I'll stay in touch.

Author:  Tom Drake [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:24 am ]
Post subject: 

Maximum Boost is good resource to work from. It will give you a real good basis in everything you need to know to do it right.
Turbochargers by Hugh Macinnes is another book. It is an older book but has a good basic theory.


Tom Drake

Author:  Dartvader [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Tom, what turbo are you guys using on your slant? I can pick up a 2.2 turbo (t-3 I am told) here off the shelf reasonably. Is that too small? What gains can I expect to see with it?

Author:  gmader [ Mon Dec 29, 2003 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  somewhat informed opinion

Hi all,

From the compressor maps I have looked at, the 2.2 turbos might be a bit small for the high performing slant. Here is a really good list of turbos that you might find in a junkyard. For a really specific look at the different 2.2 turbos, see this page

I am leaning towards a bigger turbo for my barracuda when I get to it, like the TD05H 16G, which can support up to 300 horses or so, has an integrated wastegate, and flows better.

Hope this helps!

Greg

Author:  Tom Drake [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:05 am ]
Post subject: 

We are running a T60-1. We got this directly from turbonectics.

2.2L turbos are a little on the small size. They would work but would be very limited in performance.

I will post all of the specs on our turbo later.


Tom Drake

Author:  Matt Cramer [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  2.2 turbos

I managed to get a turbo map for one of those on Turbododge.com from Depsey. It looks like these turbos are most efficient in the 2,000-3,000 RPM range on a slant. That's right in the meat of the torque curve on a stocker, but not so good if you start trying to make it rev higher. A future phase on my '66 may well include two of the little beasties.

Author:  Dartvader [ Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ok, I looked at the 2.2-2.5 turbo site, and the turbo the local yard has comes from an '89 Lebaron, which makes it a Garret, To4. How much better is that than the To3. Thanks again. I will go look at the web site more, and maybe answer my own question. Also, Tom, is the Turbo you used too big for my slant? Mine is just slightly modified, bigger exhaust valves, ported head, special cam for turbo, .030" over, forged pistons. Is there any reason I shouldn't just buy the same turbo new from turbonetics as you did? I guess your follow up will give the specifics that would allow me to place an order. Thanks again!

Author:  Tom Drake [ Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ours is a T60-1. It has a A/R ratio of .70 and is a split inlet turbo. For a mid street buildup I think it would not make enough boost below 3000rpms for you. Call Turbonectics and tell them what you are doing, they can size the correct one up over the phone.

It all depends on how you want to do it. You could certainly buy parts form a salvage yard and come up with a wicked street set-up. If you are planning on an drag only application then ours would be more of what you needed. The turbo we run supports up to 900hp.


Tom Drake

Author:  Tom Drake [ Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:49 am ]
Post subject: 

http://www.turboneticsinc.com/guidelines.html

Here is a link to good article on Turbonetics website. They give suggestions for certain sized motors planning on running 10psi or less. This will give you a good idea on what you would need to purchase.
Also ours is a O-trim.

Tom Drake

Author:  gm dstroya [ Thu Jan 01, 2004 3:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

i'd suggest a T04B turbo with a 60-1 compressor and a .82 ar exhaust with a p-trim exhaust wheel

if cash isnt so tight a gt30 roller turbo is ther most ideal one to have.

mount the turbo low and have your efi manifold mounted up high as posible, just to keep the heat of the intake, also it may pay to heat sheild the turbo, and wrap the turbo header.

you want to keep as much heat energy around the turbo, but as little as posible anywhere else.

the oil feed can be taken, from the oil pressure sender unit (tee'd with the oil pressure sender) and the return line should be placed inbetween pistons 3 and 4 at the high point posible in the sumps side (should be below the first rail) run braided line to and from the turbo.

with your exhaust manifold design.. theres a good way to go about it to maximise the exhaust gas pulse energy at low end but have it still hard at top end i just need to know th firing order of the slant six to able to apply it to the slant engine. post the firing order and i'll be able to post up the manifold design.

how much boost are you looking to run?


cheers.joe.

Author:  Dartvader [ Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:57 am ]
Post subject: 

The Slant's firing order is 153624
I'm using Doug Durta's twin cast iron manifolds that pair the front three, and back three together. I need to put togther a collector of some sort that combines these into the turbo. Do you know if they make a flange that has two inputs on the turbine input side?
From what I have read, a .82 AR seems a little high for a low RPM, street engine. From what I read, (I have no actual experience :) ) this high of an AR would create a fair amount of turbo lag down low. Do I have this backwards? Comments on this?

Author:  gm dstroya [ Sat Jan 03, 2004 7:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

an .82 exhaust sint too big at all,

i mostly play with aussie ford sohc engines these are 243 cu in.

my own personal one has a turbonetics 1000hp custom t72/78

the exhaust housing is 1.22 ar !! i hit full boost by 3200rpm

a 1.00 exhaust housing hits boost by 2800 on a 243, the .82 hits boost by 2200 rpm.

now on a 225 slant boost would be hit by 2500/2600 rpm.

you dont want boost to occur lower then that anyways, afterall, you dont want to be drvingaround on boost all day every day, and in a racing application your only off boost once (1st gear, which is good.. limits wheelspin)

the dutra duals are exactly what i would suggest.. sort of....

this is how i would do it, its exactly how i make them form for ford i6 as they have the same firing order.

the following is a cut and paste from a post i did on fordsix.org

everyone has their own different opinions on how to go about doing a turbo exhuast manifold, but i'll speak from experience on my 32 psi 740hp i6

now use steam pipe sections like in the photo's but only get ones that are either same size as your exhaust ports or juuuust slightly bigger. no matter how much hp you have (my own has 37.6mm id piping and the ports are 36mm in diameter). as this is the key to fast boost response
one thing you do is get it either spray painted in hi-temp paint or ceramic coated then wrapp it well in heat wrapping then put a heat sheild over the manifold and turbine housing

one thing to try to always do is ti keep the manifold and the turbine as hot as posible as hotter gasses are thinner and will flow ahelova lot faster.

one thing i dont like in that website is the collector they use. having all 4 pipes arive into a big open chamber gives the exhaust gasses time to expand and slow down. what you want to do is keep everything as small as posible (but not so small that it impeades flow). so run all pipes into the turbo mounting flange, and not into a colector.

i personly dropped 500rpm spool time in going form a open collector to a closed collector.

now we have an advantage in runing a i6 (particuklary engines with the 153624 foring order (ford i6)) what i have done in my own manifold is probably the best way to make a manifold for the ford i6.
i'll call cylinder1 port1 and cylinder2 port2 etc...
what you do is run port2 from the head all the way thru to the collector.
have port2 come out from the head 50mm then use a long radius 90* bend but make it so it ends up going on a 45* angle (pointing down towards the exhaust). add a short bed to flatten it out. then run it along till it get directly below the turbo colletor. then run a 90 degree bend heading straight up toward the turbo collector.

run port1 in a way that it joins into port2's piping on the bend that leveled out port 2.

run port3 in a way so that it also joins in to port2 piping at the bend section that goes back up into the turbo flange.

ports 456 are identical- port5 to turbo 6 joins in 5 on second bend 3 joins in 5 on last bend.

do not step up the size of the piping.

as the firing order only allows exhaust 'pops' happens once every 240 degree's of the cranks rotation. so the exhaust pulses are constantly hitting the turbine.

this set up works exceptoinaly well on split pulse (twin scroll) exhaust housings but will work well (and if not better then any other way of manifold construction) on single scroll housings(normal turbo designs)

i have pics and some sketches of the manifold if anyones interested. just tell me how to post them up and i will. but will not post my own pics up (its still underconstruction)

do not use stasinless steel just stick to mild steel as it retains heat very well and is more forgiving to thermal expansion. stainless steel is not and thus leads to cracking.
aw well get to it!!! boost them sixes (they just love it!!!)

cheers.joe.

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