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 Post subject: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 11:15 pm 
I posed this question once before, but it was buried in another thread and got no response.

Doug, but has anyone ever tried increasing the head bolt diameters to 1/2" for increasing the clamping force? For instance, a SB Chrysler runs 4 bolts per cylinder and they have torque specs in the 90-100 '# range. I was just wondering, because I've seen head gskt sealing problems on sl/6's with 8:1 compression ratios. What happens when you bump it up to 10.5:1 or more?


fglmopar@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:04 am 
"has anyone ever tried increasing the head bolt diameters to 1/2" for increasing the clamping force?"

The /6 has a 9/16-14 cylinder head bolt. For an improvement to the clamping and sealing, I'd suggest looking at the ARP head studs. I also like to take a skim cut (0.005" or so) just to make sure the block and head are true.

In the Mopar performance book they caution:

"When milling cylinder head and deck, don't make them too smooth or you could have gasket sealing problems. A typical production surface (100 micro-inches) should be your guide."

You didn't say what head gasket you're using. I personally like the Felpro Permatorque and have used it on a variety of engines with good success.

Hope this helps.

Gilly

tlg225ccr@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:21 am 
I thought the head bolts were 7/16"?

slantzilla@excite.com


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:49 am 
Quote:
: I thought the head bolts were 7/16"?


DOH! I looked in my handy-dandy 1999 Mopar Performance book, again. The 1968 Torque Specification table calls for the 9/16-14 bolt (page 302, PLEASE look if you have the book and tell me I'm not crazy). HOWEVER, a few pages back is the 1974 Torque Specification table. IT calls for a 7/16-14 bolt.

Would this make the later cylinder heads non-compatible w/ the older blocks? I've never heard of this. Maybe it's a typo in the 1968 table.

I rechecked Doc's info on the ARP studs. All of that info calls for the 7/16-14 thread.

Back to the original question. Can you increase the bolt size? I dunno. Sorry if I lead this thread astray.

Gilly


tlg225ccr@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 7:57 am 
Quote:
: DOH! I looked in my handy-dandy 1999 Mopar
: Performance book, again. The 1968 Torque
: Specification table calls for the 9/16-14
: bolt (page 302, PLEASE look if you have the
: book and tell me I'm not crazy). HOWEVER, a
: few pages back is the 1974 Torque
: Specification table. IT calls for a 7/16-14
: bolt.
:
: Would this make the later cylinder heads
: non-compatible w/ the older blocks? I've
: never heard of this. Maybe it's a typo in
: the 1968 table.
:
: I rechecked Doc's info on the ARP studs. All of
: that info calls for the 7/16-14 thread.
:
: Back to the original question. Can you increase
: the bolt size? I dunno. Sorry if I lead this
: thread astray.
:
: Gilly


I believe they are all 7/16" coarse (14) thread. Seems to me like it might be overkill to increase the bolt diameter. I've been running two FelPro composite head gaskets stacked up on my '68 Dart with 0.100"/0.200" milled head (10.8:1 comp) for 3-4 years and 30k miles with no troubles (actually, no troubles ever with my Slants). ARP studs seem like the way to go for serious cyl pressure. Thanks for the good info on the head surfacing, Gilly.

Lou


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 9:25 am 
Quote:
: "has anyone ever tried increasing the head
: bolt diameters to 1/2" for increasing
: the clamping force?"
:
: The /6 has a 9/16-14 cylinder head bolt. For an
: improvement to the clamping and sealing, I'd
: suggest looking at the ARP head studs. I
: also like to take a skim cut (0.005" or
: so) just to make sure the block and head are
: true.
:
: In the Mopar performance book they caution:
: "When milling cylinder head and deck,
: don't make them too smooth or you could have
: gasket sealing problems. A typical
: production surface (100 micro-inches) should
: be your guide."
: Gilly


The "9/16" call-out is a typo, I have seen that mistake "carried-over" to a number of places.
All the SL6 blocks are tapped 7/16 - 14 unc and this works well with the stock bolts up into the 10 to 1 compression range. You do need to prep your surfaces well and use a good quality gasket.
I use 70 ftlbs on stock head bolts. (this spec is also called-out as 65 ftlbs in most places)

The ARP head stud are the next step if your working with 11 to 1 ++ compression, I torque these to 80 ftlbs and again, surface prep and gasket type is key and *different* depending on the gasket you are using. Most super high cylinder pressure applications go to receiver grooves and copper O-rings but stay with the 7/16 - 14 block holes.

I have done one of the 1/2 - 13 unc oversize "retrofits" just because I had a nice block with a couple of messed-up tapped holes. It can be done but drilling-out the old threads "on centerline" and re-tapping is a "time bandit". (do it on a big drill press or end mill)
This is a "it can be done but there is no real need to" kind of up-grade.
DD


Image


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 11:31 am 
I'm guessing it's a misprint. I have an '81 head on a '68 block with 7/16" bolts. I've never really seen anyone have head gasket trouble unless they were over 13 to 1 compression. Later! Dennis


slantzilla@excite.com


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 3:25 pm 
Quote:
: I'm guessing it's a misprint. I have an '81
: head on a '68 block with 7/16" bolts.
: I've never really seen anyone have head
: gasket trouble unless they were over 13 to 1
: compression. Later! Dennis


No kidding! I've seen it on several 'stock' sl/6's. Though, I couldn't tell you what may have brought about that event; you know, operator error, or poor assembly procedures, or what.

fglmopar@aol.com


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 Post subject: Re: 1/2" head bolts?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:21 am 
Quote:
: The "9/16" call-out is a typo, I have
: seen that mistake "carried-over"
: to a number of places.
: All the SL6 blocks are tapped 7/16 - 14 unc and
: this works well with the stock bolts up into
: the 10 to 1 compression range. You do need
: to prep your surfaces well and use a good
: quality gasket.
: I use 70 ftlbs on stock head bolts. (this spec
: is also called-out as 65 ftlbs in most
: places)
:
: The ARP head stud are the next step if your
: working with 11 to 1 ++ compression, I
: torque these to 80 ftlbs and again, surface
: prep and gasket type is key and *different*
: depending on the gasket you are using. Most
: super high cylinder pressure applications go
: to receiver grooves and copper O-rings but
: stay with the 7/16 - 14 block holes.
:
: I have done one of the 1/2 - 13 unc oversize
: "retrofits" just because I had a
: nice block with a couple of messed-up tapped
: holes. It can be done but drilling-out the
: old threads "on centerline" and
: re-tapping is a "time bandit". (do
: it on a big drill press or end mill)
: This is a "it can be done but there is no
: real need to" kind of up-grade.
: DD


Hi Doug;

I have always wondered about the same question. I now have over 40 runs on my new 13.5-1 engine. My season is over and I want to tear this engine down to inspect it. I used 7/16 ARP studs,copper head gasket with a stainless steel o-ring's in the cylinder block. So far I have had no problems ? ? ? I have a fairly big roller cam and I also want to inspect that. Before I tore the engine apart I did a cranking compression check and had 305 PSI on all the cylinder ! Maybe that's why the car ran good this year. I'll let you know what I found.

Dave


damuel@kalama.com


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 Post subject: Re: Race Wagon Up-date?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 9:54 am 
Thanks for the up-date Dave,
What size SST wire do you use? what size block groove? (how much "crush")

How did you do at the Woodburn "Nats" last month, what is your current best time with this new combo. ?
DD
Quote:
:
: Hi Doug;
: I have always wondered about the same question.
: I now have over 40 runs on my new 13.5-1
: engine. My season is over and I want to tear
: this engine down to inspect it. I used 7/16
: ARP studs,copper head gasket with a
: stainless steel o-ring's in the cylinder
: block. So far I have had no problems ? ? ? I
: have a fairly big roller cam and I also want
: to inspect that. Before I tore the engine
: apart I did a cranking compression check and
: had 305 PSI on all the cylinder ! Maybe
: that's why the car ran good this year. I'll
: let you know what I found.
:
: Dave


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 10:05 am 
Quote:
: No kidding! I've seen it on several 'stock'
: sl/6's. Though, I couldn't tell you what may
: have brought about that event; you know,
: operator error, or poor assembly procedures,
: or what.


I find that freshly machined, dead flat surfaces is the key to a good head gasket seal.
Clean threads in good condition is another thing to watch for. (rechase & clean tapped holes, wire brush and inspect bolt / stud threads for any damage)

Many times "stock" engine assemblies do not get this level of attention, especially when doing an in-car "valve job" - head swap. This can lead to head gasket sealing problems.
DD


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