Dan,

Ok, thanks for the heads up. I have 5 carbs at home, so I will start measuring and documenting.

My current 1920 Econmiser has the low speed bleed potted with lead, so the low speed emulsion circuit is not working. I want to open it back up but wasn't sure how much. Juan suggested starting with a #65 drill. I noticed on one of my carbs a brass adjustable rod that adjusts the bleed size. Some are just pressed in and ground off. The low speed bleeds all seem to be different sizes.

I have hit the wall at 22.5 mpg for the last 280 gallons (since Christmas) with it in this condition using a #58 jet. I am sure the cold weather and my aggressive driving habits haven't helped.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

_________________
Aggressive Ted

http://cid-32f1e50ddb40a03c.photos.live ... %20Swinger


74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG

One of the big aero dynamic improvements you can make to a car is an front air dam to smooth air passage under the car. I'm not going to go getting all crazy and modify what is a very beautiful body style with a honda style ground effect but I wonder what benifit might come from a 2 inch drop and a belly pan? Any of you racers run a belly pan?

-Ned

You guys are onto something I've been thinking about for quite a while. Here's my bright idea: plug in hybrid.

I'm a delivery driver. Twice a week, I get in the truck, start her up, and drive almost 800 miles basically without stopping. All highway. Around 20-22 hours. So my idea is to carry an array of fully charged deep cycle batteries, eliminate the alternator completely (as in removed along with the belt) and convert the steering and water pump to electric drive. When I'm done with my run, I can plug into household A/c and recharge the batteries, ready for the next run.

My theory comes from that old Hot Rod article where they removed the belt on the alternator and picked up a few 10ths in the 1/4 mile. When you have 400 horsepower, the losses from the accessory belts don't make much difference. But when you are in something that is already underpowered, or has low power, you should see a big improvement in mileage. My current truck (not a slant) has maybe 100hp. Saving 8hp would make a big difference in the mileage. Running out the numbers:

8000 miles per month at 10mpg x $3.50/gallon =$2800
8000 miles per month at 11mpg x $3.50/gallon =$2545

That's a nice chunk.

I totally understand where this plug in hybrid concept wouldn't really be workable for everybody, but for me it might be worth pursuing.

Any thoughts on figuring out how much power it takes to run the water pump? The alternator? The power steering? The AC? The belt itself? If they aren't driven by the engine, those accessories could be located anywhere you like - in the floor, on the roof, etc.

Kip Amore aka Kip On Truckin'

_________________
1965 Valiant wagon Turbo slant (work in progress)
2000 Chevy 155" cargo van - The Abductor
1970 Newport convertible
1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon
1966 CruiseAire motor home
1990 Toyota 1 ton box truck TURBO slant (scraped)

well 4 6-volt batteries can give you 480 amp hours charge total, minus the draw from the electrical sub systems, i don't think you'll be able to recharge the batteries fast enough to replenish the battery bank for the next day.

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63 valiant v200 Wagon 9.5, Schneider cam, E.I. 22 mpg all day

For practical things you can do just Google the various things. Most of the loads you describe are variable and speed dependant (i.e. water pump, mechanical an, etc). I, for one, would NOT engage in cost/benefits analysis regarding eakng out more MPG. In other words, don't expect to recover $1000 spent in fuel savings right away. If you want to improve your mileage do it because it makes you feel good--the cost analysis may not pan out. For example, there is NO pay back on flat screen televisions, bad to the bone car stereos, or hopped up performance Slant Sixes--we do them because we want to! So, good on you for giving it some thought.

Things you can do:

Get a PAW catalog and take a look at adapting electric fans and water pumps to work on a Slant Six. Have fun and be patient, probably zero will fit without YOU fabricating something to make it work. Browse junkyards if that is a good time for you, parts are way cheaper there, but time=money, what is it worth to you...

If you can pack some batteries onboard (perhaps four 12 volts in parallel) you can power the engine electrically for a good while--a voltmeter will inform you of your battery bank status. It IS absolutely cheaper to charge the battery using the electricity from your home electric service than it is to turn the alternator. Depending on rates, etc you can view electricity as about 60 cent a gallon gasoline (that is for a main drive motor on an electric car).

I work for an electric utility and we are terrified that electric cars are coming our way--it means we will see a flat loading curve and have to purchase more resources. Sooner or later we believe the electric car will be coming our way, so, we are planning for it.

Your notion is a reasonable quasi-hybrid approach that should work. I would suggest you try the no alternator thing for a while (just get a shorter belt to run the water pump, etc as needed) and take notes to see what happens. An electric fan will work right out of the box. f you drive carefully (i.e. for max mpg) you should start picking up a few MPG from these tweaks. Take notes if you do this and please let us know how it goes...

_________________
Slanted D150

Hauling around all the extra battery weight will decrease mileage.

So at best I'd think it would be a wash.......

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Ems,
I thought about that. I think weight makes a huge difference for performance, but with the trucks I've had it doesn't seem to matter as much. Loaded or dry, it doesn't seem to affect the mileage very much. I think this is because weight makes a bigger difference when accelerating than it does at steady state. As I say, once I get it up to speed, I don't stop for 200 or 300 miles sometimes.

Also, you can DRASTICALLY improve your mileage by taking a cue from the truckers. When climbing a hill, let the vehicle slow down to 45 if you feel like. On the downhill side, use the gravity well for mileage gains instead of free speed. It's annoying and slow, but it makes a large difference.

I thought of 2 ways to test accessory losses. One involves putting the thing on dyno with and then without the belts (all of them). The other involves using the dragstrip, mph, and vehicle weight to do the same thing. Or 0-60 with a stopwatch might work.

It also occurs to me that a water pump is likely a compromise design. It turns with engine speed, so the impeller must be designed with extra pitch such that it provides enough flow at idle, full throttle blasts, and crusing. It would seem that if you designed an electric water pump you could maximize it better. I could be wrong about that. I surmise that the reason all cars don't have electric water pumps is that the failure mode is catastrophic - where as a mechanical pump is generally foolproof.

Same with a power steering pump - it spins fastest when I absolutly don't need it at all. I only need it below 5mph and yet it spins all the time.

As to charging - it occurs to me that a battery charger would have trouble topping up 4 deep cycles overnight, but 4 battery chargers wouldn't.

I might be testing all this stuff sooner rather than later - gas isn't getting any cheaper!

Kip on Truckin'

_________________
1965 Valiant wagon Turbo slant (work in progress)
2000 Chevy 155" cargo van - The Abductor
1970 Newport convertible
1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon
1966 CruiseAire motor home
1990 Toyota 1 ton box truck TURBO slant (scraped)

Tell us more about the truck. Year, make, model, engine, trans, etc.

Since you're doing a lot of steady state driving rather than stop and go I think aerodynamic and rolling resistance improvements should be given strong consideration.

There are electric power steering pumps. The 2nd generation Toyota MR2 uses one. Electric cooling fan is a no-brainer. There are electric water pumps and water pump drives. I don't know much about the dedicated automotive electric water pumps, but the motors that come with the add-on water pump drives don't last long. Since the water pump has to run full time I don't think it's a good choice for electrification.

Two 6 volt golf car batteries should get you quite a ways without a charging system provided the truck isn't too hungry for electrons. Driving at night and in the rain uses more electrical power of course. I would put some solar panels on the roof with a charge controller to recharge the batteries. Since you wrote that you make these trips twice a week in the sunnier months the solar array might meet the electrical needs. A smart battery charger can make up for any shortfall.

_________________
Joshua

...except that the load on the engine when it's spinning and you're not steering is negligible, because the pump is just circulating fluid which isn't being channelised to do any work. The valves in the steering box are receiving the fluid and sending it right back to the pump. Minor pumping load, but basically no workload.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Josh,
It's a little off-topic, but the truck in question is a 1990 Toyota 1 ton box truck. 3.0L V6, multiport EFI, automatic w/overdrive. It weighs #4400 dry, and I load it between 1000 and 2500 lbs. It's got the aero of a brick, but I'm working with an aerospace guy on a design for a spoiler.

In short, the truck blew a head gasket. Toyota has a recall on the HG because it's such a poor design. Amazingly, they say they'll replace both HGs for free....on a 19 year old truck with 191k. I have a sneaking suspicion they will crap out on the deal, and I'm not sticking any money into this motor. Aside from blowing HGs, they are known gas pigs. 14mpg is good for this combination. Literally dozens of web sites and at least 4 companies are devoted to putting real engines in this truck, as the truck itself is quite worthy (torsion bars!).

Right now, the engine of choice is the 96-up Buick 3800 Series II V6. But I registered the truck commercial and am emissions exempt. I can put a diesel in there if I want to (I don't! Vegetable oil works but it's a big hassle). And I have a spare slant six which happens to be lying around. And I have a 3 speed manual trans for it, which I could upgrade with the overdrive model. Hum... The slant doesn't really actually fit in the bay, but it could be made to. The only thing in the way is the radiator, and I think I can work around that.

A dude on the web just finished putting the 3800 in his, and he reports 24mpg. I'd be absolutly thrilled to get 20mpg. But I have to balance this with chosing a motor that's durable and servicable by yours truly. So I'm on the fence. I figure with a fresh /6, Megasquirt, and the overdrive I could see pretty consistent 20mpg. And I have a spare turbo setup which might compliment this package nicely. I wanna make 200ft/lbs at 1800 rpm and never have to rev it past 2000.

Any thoughts?

Kip on Truckin'

_________________
1965 Valiant wagon Turbo slant (work in progress)
2000 Chevy 155" cargo van - The Abductor
1970 Newport convertible
1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon
1966 CruiseAire motor home
1990 Toyota 1 ton box truck TURBO slant (scraped)

A 3.0 liter Toyota. Nice motor, had one in a early 90's P/U. Plenty of spunk. Toyota replaced my head gaskets for free about ten years ago, right around 100K miles. How spoiled we are these days, if they will replace the head gaskets at the ~200K mark that is great. My experience with Toyota was wonderful, if they recall something they fix it for free--I don't think the dealers get a choice on that. Don't be too sure that they won't fix that for you.

I agree that the 3.0 V-6 was a gas pig, at best I got 18 mpg. Seemed a little light for a "high technology" 3 liter, but then it was a 4WD and that certainly doesn't help mileage at all. The brick like aerodynamics of a truck will always be hard to get past as well.

Anyway, if your rig has the same engine bay of the early 90's P/U's I would wonder just how a slant will fit. That Toyota engine bay was awfully tight with just the 3.0 liter in there. The V-6 is short, short, short compared to an I-6 like the slant. In my D-150 the Slant fits like a dream, I assume this is because the engine bay was designed for a monster MOPAR V-8. Perhaps you can put a tape measure to the engine bay and see what the approximate dimensions are. You mention booting the radiator...in my Toy P/U there wasn't a whole lot of space between the front of the engine except radiator and the end of the truck! I wonder if you would have to modify the firewall to make a Slant work. The 3.8 liter Buick is a known swap candidate for the Toyota trucks and it is just a tad more modern than the Slant. However, if you are motivated you can shove just about any motor into an engine bay.

Not to rain on your parade but consider getting Toyota to fix the head gaskets and then think about either getting a Slanted truck, or sell/trade the Slant and go with the Buick 3.8 in the Toyota. All of the MPG tweaks will work on any engine, and compared to the Slant Six I think the Buick 3.8 is better for what you are considering. It is certainly a more "modern" engine (it has had years of improvements) and has a number of "natural" upgrade possibilities (i.e. factory turbo on the Grand National, etc, etc). Ironically the base 3.8 engine apparently hit the streets in 1962, so it has something in common with the 225 CI Slant (a 1963 introduction date if I recall correctly). There is quite a bit of aftermarket support for putting a 3.8 liter into a Toyota, I doubt there is any support for putting a Slant Six in a Toyota.

_________________
Slanted D150

Toyota had electric power steering on some MR2's.

Vapors from the batteries will eat the body of the truck up.

BUY A VACUUM GAUGE!!! Money well spent.

_________________
'72 Duster 198 stock cam, 3:23's Hookers on jack stands for 8 years in the driveway
'79 Maxivan 360 Offy Qjet Comp RV cam/rusting in the driveway.
93 D350 160HP Cummins Auto Dually Clubcab needs a injector pump
2005 Golden Couch Buick

Tlrol,
The Toy motor is apparently ok on power. 170 ft/lbs at 3750! Who drives at 3750. But in a passcar application, that's a goodly amount of power.

At first glance, it seems like the 3.0 crowds the engine compartment, but it's actually all the "mystery" junk attached to the engine that does it. There's 14 vacuume hoses coming out of it, and a bunch of other stuff that I don't know what it does. Last weekend I started tearing into it - because you have to disassemble the whole top end to actually get to the injectors, and once you get all the crap out of the way the engine bay itself is pretty straitforward and somewhat roomy. The 3800 Buick (from web pictures) fits just fine.

As to getting the slant in there, it looks like once it's in there (assuming the block/trans mating surface was located at the same spot as the toyota engine) the front edge of the crank pulley would just barely be touching the radiator. Too close for comfort, but I think there is nothing stopping me from moving the trans crossmember back. As to mounts, I did a big block Valiant 15 years ago that used Elephant Ears for mounts, and that worked great. I'd do the same here.

But the big question is can you build a slant for mileage and have it be competitive with a "modern" engine? I'm not 100% sure you can, and that's why I'm leaning toward the buick. The 3800 Series II is similar to the Grand National era Buick (which itself is the same as the 225 made in the 60s) but it's very different at the same time. The Series II is what came with a blower in 96-up Rivieras and what came in a Firebird or Camaro 96-up. They still make it, but it's called Series III now and it comes in the Pontiac GXP and G6 I think.

The slant appeals to me on an emotional level though. I think it could do the job, but I'm just not sure about the mileage, which is the point of this exercise. It's the long stroke that makes it tempting. And the durability. At 80k a year, you get into a lot of maintenance issues with other engines that you don't on a slant. Like the timing belt on the Toyota, or the head gaskets, etc.

Rug Trucker: you are right about the vac gauge. The problem is that this Toyota and my previous normally aspirated diesel were/are basically underpowered. That means that you are always right up against what the engine can deliver, with no cushion. I suppose if I had a vacuume gauge, it would basically show 0 to 1" all the time. A turbo would change that, and generate better mileage in the process.

Or I could just drive the Toyota till it blows up, take the box off and mount it to something else. Or I could get another job that doesn't involve driving. The fuel costs are killing me, and I may soon come to the point where I raise prices so high my customers go elsewhere.

My solution to this whole dilema was to convert the diesel to running fryer grease. I did and it worked okay after much revamping, but I had trouble aquiring enough of the stuff to make a difference. A restaurant puts out maybe 15 gallons a week of waste oil (depending) and I need 200 gallons a week. So it was becoming a part time job just to gather fuel. Still, at $4 a gallon for diesel that's $800 a week (!) I'm missing out on, but what can you do.

Kip on Truckin'

_________________
1965 Valiant wagon Turbo slant (work in progress)
2000 Chevy 155" cargo van - The Abductor
1970 Newport convertible
1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon
1966 CruiseAire motor home
1990 Toyota 1 ton box truck TURBO slant (scraped)

Kip,

Interesting to get the perspective from a guy driving for a living, ugly stuff this expensive fuel! I drive my kids to school in my wife's Discovery II. $80 a week--sucks, but then the school bus is more like the state pen so we drive them, lol.. I am looking at finding a donor car to go all electric drive for commuting---fyi, off the line electric cars crush all others plus the lack of burning, sooty, oily stuff makes them clean to work on.

Sadly, your job sounds like you have to stay with liquid fuels for the range. I think that you should try the mileage tweaks on what you have now--the Toy's have a clutched fan so that isn't a prime candidate for removal. You could pickup some sealed batteries and loose the alternator. I suggest grabbing a single extra battery and making a 30 mile or so drive from one gas station to another. Tank up at both ends and re-connct the alternator on the return trip and swap in the extra (charged) battery-this should give some idea of what gains you might get by charging your batteries at home instead of on the truck. I would also make a drive and see how much time you have on an uncharged battery before it croaks (THE EXTRA BATTERY IS PRETTY HANDY FOR THIS EXPERIMENT). If you get a few mpg increase it sounds like a winner. A almost $4 a gallon you can buy some batteries prety fast. The extra weight isn't a big deal for 4 or 5 batteries--they add up to the weight of a person and if you are hauling freight it doesn't matter anyway.

Figure what works on the Toy first, and then maybe tackle the Slant install. A Slant in a Toyota, that would have to be worth a magazine aricle somewhere.

_________________
Slanted D150

If all goes well, the Toyota will be back in service soon, with an engine that's not running on 3 cylinders, and then we can get down to building the spoiler and testing the hybrid concept. I have high hopes. I'm trying to figure out a way to test how much grunt it takes to drive the water pump, without melting the truck down in the process. Anybody got any ideas?

As to your commute, there's really little you can do. I know it's a smack in the face, but if you are hauling the kiddies around you really want to keep safety in mind. You could make the trip with a moped pulling some radio flyer wagons with a kid in each, and get 100s of miles to the gallon, but I don't think it's a great idea.

The electric car is something that's intrigued me for years. I always wanted to build one just for the hell of it. Even as a diehard petrol head, I see the potential (pun!). In certain apps (inner city, short distance suburbia) it makes total sense. I guess the trick is to start out with the lightest car you can find and work from there. Cooper, Nash Metropolitan, Yugo, MGB, something like that. You are limited to junkyard passcar lead acid batteries, simply because anything else would be too expensive. Maybe a giant array of discarded cell phone batteries. Lots of D cells. Dunno. When I was a kid and my Walkman wouldn't have enough juice to turn the cassette, I'd take out the batteries and heat them with my zippo. That's get me another couple minutes.

Another idea would be to build a car where the frame and body ARE the batteries. It's just two dissimilar metals in an acid, why does it have to be shaped like a lunchbox?

It's late, I'm groggy.

Kip on Truckin'

_________________
1965 Valiant wagon Turbo slant (work in progress)
2000 Chevy 155" cargo van - The Abductor
1970 Newport convertible
1996 Buick Roadmaster Wagon
1966 CruiseAire motor home
1990 Toyota 1 ton box truck TURBO slant (scraped)