In addition to the data you mentioned, I'm curious about the actual dimensions - lengths of the control arms and spindles, the locations of mounting points on the K-member, that sort of thing. Thank you for responding.

BTW, one thing I should mention to the others reading this thread - from all accounts, the F / M / J / B / R spindles are perfectly fine for daily drivers or drag cars. What I was debating was whether they're a desirable swap for all out road race or autocross cars - and judging by Bill's data, this seems to be the case too.

_________________
"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

My software tests were done using Performance Trends' Suspension Analyzer, which is the best suspension software I've run across. I also own Autoware's suspension geometry pro, which didnt impress me, and have tried WinGeo3 and SusProg3D. PT's program is definitely bug-free, offers full vehicle testing and many more outputs...did my homwork on this stuff too With my own suspension, I really needed software that worked. Susp. Analyzer is also the most expensive, but worth the money if you need accurate data. I also use Quantum's 4-bubble gauge for double-checking camber/caster against the software.

ANYWAY:) For my other suspension projects, I also have a stand with bare a-body front rails on it specifically for working on suspension combos. Without a car surrounding the parts, 3-axis measurments are easy to make and accurate. So here's the data I gathered on these spindles. Both tests were the same stock a-body suspension and kframe...I made my measurements with the A-spindles on, then only switched to the B-spindles and measured again. So, the only change was the spindle itself.
Re-Alignment required only a slight adjustment of the cams for the B-spindle.
All outputs here are in degrees. Tire was 24" diameter. You'll notice under dive, bumpsteer is decreased by quite a bit. This change alone should, in theory, reduce the oversteer tendency caused by excessive toe-in of the outside wheel on a lowered car. Caster gain drops a little, and camber gain goes up a little. Roll Center height is 1-1.5" higher, but none of the AutoX guys I spoke with had any problem with that. It wasn't raised enough to cause jacking, but even just an inch change helps somewhat with roll stiffness. I don't feel any of the changes here are enough to make the B-spindle the next big thing, but it's good to know that an easy to find part has no negative affects. I think these changes are very subtle, but I still remember 2 fellows saying their times improved in Solo events.
I have no proof of that though, so take that statement as you see fit.

Stock 73-up a-body suspension with 73-up a-body spindle. Ride height
for this test is 2"(at the wheel) lowered from mid-point of allowable
travel.

Dive ToeIn_deg Caster Camber RC_Ht
-2.500 .259 .088 -.178 7.970
-2.000 .126 1.205 .011 7.794
-1.500 .039 2.283 .072 7.503
-1.000 -.007 3.331 .028 7.146
-.500 -.019 4.356 -.106 6.752
.000 .000 5.362 -.320 6.336
+.500 .045 6.353 -.607 5.909
+1.000 .114 7.330 -.960 5.479
+1.500 .202 8.298 -1.377 5.051
+2.000 .307 9.256 -1.855 4.629
+2.500 .426 10.207 -2.391 4.216



'73-up A-body suspension with 73-up BJFMR spindle. Ride height for
this test was 2" lowered(at the wheel) from mid-point of allowable
travel.

Dive ToeIn_deg Caster Camber RC_Ht
-2.500 .389 .278 .871 9.631
-2.000 .238 1.298 .867 9.233
-1.500 .130 2.291 .766 8.793
-1.000 .057 3.260 .582 8.330
-.500 .015 4.211 .324 7.858
.000 .000 5.146 .000 7.384
+.500 .009 6.068 -.386 6.912
+1.000 .038 6.978 -.831 6.447
+1.500 .084 7.878 -1.332 5.991
+2.000 .144 8.770 -1.887 5.547
+2.500 .216 9.654 -2.496 5.116

I didnt expect the numbers to jumble together...

Here's the link to the actual wordpad Doc...

http://www.bigblockdart.com/oddstuff/St ... arison.doc

Bill,

Thanks for the numbers and the link to your site. Looks like good useful info there from some hard work on your part. Would you care to speculate on how these numbers would change on an early narrow A-body (like my '64 Dart)? Supposedly, the only difference from the '68-up body is that the frame rails and K-frame are 2" narrower on the early cars. I guess the '73-up LCA is different in construction too, but I think it's geometry is the same as the earlier piece.

Thanks again,

Lou

_________________
Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

There shouldn't be any differences. The mount points are the same between the early and late A-bodies.

I believe the roll center height might be different?

Lou

_________________
Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Narrowing the 67-76 a-body system by 2 inches doesnt change much.
The roll center height is about a quarter of an inch lower throughout the travel range. That's about it.
I was thinking the narrower car would cause the roll center to change faster, but it didnt really have much affect.

Thanks for posting all that information, Bill. I never thought I'd see those numbers without having to make some measurements and calculate it out with some home-brewed software until this thread.

_________________
"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

Too much for my feeble college student mind to handle!

"Would you like fries with that?"

*head explodes*

_________________
'74 Duster w/ HEI ignition, beat to snot suspension, A904, 8.25" 3.55 SG rear, still being tuned up and gets 17 MPG

Know how they always build a better idiot? That's me

Thanks Bill. I assume you posted as the "Guest" shown above.

Where are you located? Do you have anything to do with this new business making classic Chrysler suspension tools? I just bought a couple of things from them and was very pleased. The guy mentioned he had a front frame from a Dart setup to do measurements on so I thought it might be you.

Lou

_________________
Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Yea, it was me. I forgot to type my name in. I'm in Northeast PA. I build Mopar suspension, but not tools. I think I know who you're talking about. A guy emailed me a while back wanting to know if I wanted to sell his custom suspension tools in the E-store. I was definitely interested, but he never got back to me. Oh well. Do you know where I can get back in touch with these guys? I've been trying to find balljoint sockets for a while now, with no luck.

Last I checked, NAPA had a square socket that would work; you just needed a really big rachet wrench to use it. If not, a ball joint socket would be pretty easy to make on a milling machine.

_________________
"Mad Scientist" Matt Cramer
'66 Dart - turbocharged 225
My blog - Mad Scientist Matt's Lair

I bought one of my ball jt sockets from Moog. The other one came from Matco, or Proto or Snap-on or Mac tools. Some of my other suspension tools are from OTC, and they are really HD and nice.

_________________
'66 Cuda 225/4spd
'66 Dart GT convertible 225/auto
'64 Dart GT 340/4spd

Bill and others,

I bought a new balljoint socket for late A and B bods (E too?) from a guy that I found on the web, but I can't find the link now. They are advertising in Mopar Action and possibly Mopar Muscle, so check out an ad for suspension tools there.

The guy's email address is: BlndCrw@aol.com

I paid $35 for a very nice 1/2"-drive ball joint socket and $35 for an UCA bushing puller/installer. Definitely money well spent on both counts as they made these repairs a snap - even quicker than using a shop press on the UCAs. Only small problem was that the long bolt with the UCA installer broke after pressing in/out 3 bushings. I think it may have partly been due to my heavy handed friend whose car we were working on, but a new bolt is easy enough to buy too.

All in all a great experience and very affordable. They have sockets for earlier As and C bodies as well.

If anyone has trouble finding them, I can dig up their phone number.

Cheers,

Lou

_________________
Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Hi all. It's been a while since I've been here. New Forum looks nice.
I wrote this in the old forum; hope it's relevant somehow.
Back in 95 or 6 I swapped spindles and discs from a J body onto my 73 duster. So far I've had no problems.
Aligned fine, drives nice. Could swear the stance is an inch or two wider. Not much of a problem for me tho'; I just thought this info might be useful to someone looking into the same thing.
-Jaymo_74