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 Post subject: Still Won't Start
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:56 am 
I have replaced all ignition wiring and components and they all check out. I replaced the timing chain and sprockets. I had earlier redone the heads (it was running but had 2 blown valves), replaced the carb and fuel pump. When I did the timing chain and sprockets, I lined the marks up using a straight edge and it corresponded with TDC on the harmonic balancer. I verified the position by making sure both valves were closed and the piston felt like it was at the top of the stroke. I manually timed the distributor as suggested here. I did the latter several times trying to get 10 degrees BTDC. It still will not start...not even a single pop. I can smell gas and after trying to start for awhile, the plugs appear wet. Do I need to just move the distributor one tooth at a time? Maybe I am close but not close enough? Is it possible that I have a vacuum leak and am not getting enough fuel or the correct fuel/air mixture? The last time it ran, I checked for vacuum leaks using soapy water and did not detect anything. This is really driving me nuts. Anybody out there that lives in Lubbock, TX and makes house calls?? Thanks again everyone.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:11 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:04 am
Posts: 45
Car Model:
I'm not much for typing, so I'll just refer you to the last post on the "I give up" thread.

Hope it helps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:12 am 
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Contributor
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:29 am
Posts: 1049
Location: Texas
Car Model: 1964 Valiant convertible 225 automatic
I don't think I read that you have eliminated bad fuel as a possibility. Have your tried putting a splash of known good gas into the carb before cranking? I think I would try a shot of starting fluid also.

Even with your timing way off, you should get a backfire or something to indicate the spark and fuel are both getting there.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:52 am 
Carb cleaner works good too incase you don't have any starter fluid handy


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 Post subject: Thanks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:53 am 
Early on, I added known good gas and "Heet" to the tank. I did not try starter fluid but will try that. I also had bypassed the circuit and went directly from the battery to the coil (positives on both). I did not try to start it that way but did get full voltage as should be suspected. I will try to start it that way. I was concerned when I did that because I had removed the ground cable from the battery to connect the bypass wire and when I reattached the ground cable, it sparked a little which it noirmally does not when attaching the cable. Any idea what that was???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 11:33 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:04 am
Posts: 45
Car Model:
If you still had the test wire attached to the coil + (which I'm assuming) then you had a path to ground through the ignition primary, hence the spark when you re-attached the battery ground cable 8)


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 Post subject: Still No Start
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:32 pm 
Alrighty then, I ran a wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the positive end of the coil and no action. I put the wires back and cranked it while shooting ether down the carb and got an occasional loud pop that indicates to me it is STILL a timing problem and nothing more at this point. After all that ether, I am at least not feeling anymore pain...just kidding although this stubborn car made a major gash to the bone in my finger...never saw blood gush out like that. Should have had stitches but all they do anyway is super glue and steristrips which we have here so it will eventually heal.....now....is it just me? Am I stupid? Why is it this hard to time. I have redone it several times and I am confident it is lined up. How far off of timing is it if it is one distributor gear tooth off? The gear has 13 teeth so 13 into 360 is almost 28 degrees. At this point am I better cranking it while I rotate the distributor...then move it one tooth in one direction and do the same?


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 Post subject: reply to won't start
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 7:30 pm 
This may sound way to simple, But in chevy the timing marks on the cam sprocket will have the opposite cylinder ready to fire, when you set them up as described try moving the distributor 1/2 turn or set it up to fire #6 cylinder. :?: :roll:


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 Post subject: ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:31 pm 
Offline
EFI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 12:08 am
Posts: 340
Location: Seattle, WA
Car Model:
I don't really know where you are, now. So, I'll start kinda at the begining. First, what you should have done when you put the new timing gears in is dial the cam, and check the #1 TDC mark on the dampener or pulley. If you could put a positive stop in the #1 spark plug hole, you could still chk it. If you can't do that or put a dial indicator with a long plunger extension thru the #1 spark plug hole to figure where TDC is, it really can only be done with the 'swag' method. I think that has been mentioned already, putting your finger in the spark plug hole and cranking to figure what stroke you're on. You can guess, and get pretty close. You can get right on if your timing mark is true. The thing to remember is the helical gear that drives the distributor will spiral in, so you'll need to compensate for that when you insert the distributor so that the rotor will point to the proposed #1 cap terminal. When the distributor is in, rotate the body against the normal running rotation of the rotor until the points open or the reluctor tooth lines up with the mag pickup ridge. Snug up the dist hold down bolt. Check the fit of the cap and make sure the rotor really is pointing directly at the terminal you intend to make #1. The firing order is 153624. So install the rest of the wires, one at a time, in the correct order and in the correct rotation of the rotor. You may find the firing order and the dist rotation displayed on the intake manifold. Make sure the plugs are clean and dry. I think I'd block the choke open and watch to make sure the carb is not flooding. Be careful, don't put your face directly over the carb while cranking, in case it spits back on you. You've changed so many things it really makes it hard to pinpoint any one thing. You may have multiple problems going on.

_________________
'66 Cuda 225/4spd
'66 Dart GT convertible 225/auto
'64 Dart GT 340/4spd


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 Post subject: more?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 6:21 am 
Offline
EFI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 12:08 am
Posts: 340
Location: Seattle, WA
Car Model:
Just had another thought. There is a remote possibility, that you could have a slipped ring on the dampener, or a mismatch of timing cover and dampener. I seem to remember they changed the location of the timing tab on the timing cover. I know they did that on the small blocks, but I think they did that on the later sl/6's too. Somebody else got anything on that? Anyway, you may be forced to do the positive stop thing to figure out the exact #1 TDC. Which probably isn't a bad idea, anyway.

_________________
'66 Cuda 225/4spd
'66 Dart GT convertible 225/auto
'64 Dart GT 340/4spd


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 Post subject: Thanks
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:32 am 
Thanks for everyone's continued help. When I installed the timing chain and sprockets, I lined up the two sprocket marks. I used a small straight edge and made sure the straight edge bissected the two marks and the center of the cam and crank shafts. When I put the harmonic balancer back on, it lined up almost perfectly with the timing mark. I turned the engine manually and made sure it was on the compression stroke by watching the rocker arms for the first cylinder through the oil filler cap...I made sure that the intake valve closed before reaching the timing mark and that the exhaust valve opened after and that both were closed on the mark. I know the valves close OK because I had 125 pounds (cold) in all cylinders. I also used a stout insulated wire (for a 240 volt AC application so it was probably about 8 or 10 gauge) to feel for the piston's highest point. I then backed off 10 degrees and inserted the distributor so the rotor lined up with the first cylinder position. I replaced the cap, attached the number one plug to the plug wire and grounded it, turned on the ignition and rotated the distributor to find the spark position. Then I secured the distributor and cranked it but not even a single pop....I did this entire procedure multiple times. Unfortunately, the slant 6 design has all the maintainable parts (oil filter, distributor, plugs) on the side with zero clearance and the other side has miles of maneuver room. I still agree with everyone here that it is timing but I sure can't correct it. Where do I get a "positive stop" device to insert in the plug hole? Also, the car is a 73, the engine I believe is 78 and the highest duster listing the parts stores have is 75. Is it possible the 73 distributor does not work on a 78 engine???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:07 am 
Offline
3 Deuce Weber
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:58 pm
Posts: 95
Location: Edenton, North Carolina
Car Model:
are you using an electronic distributor in a points engine?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:28 am 
Offline
Guru
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2002 4:32 pm
Posts: 4880
Location: Working in Silicon Valley, USA
Car Model:
You may just be 180 degrees off. (trying to fire at TDC Exhaust stroke)
Hydraulic lifter engines can have little to no overlap at TDCE which can fool you into thinking that's TDC compression.

Try moving the distributor to point to #6 and see if you get any pops. Sounds like you need to determine true TDC compression stroke, you have done everything else needed to get this engine running.
DD

PS, Last resort is to just try some different distributor positions, there are 13 possibilities. (gear teeth) :wink:


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 Post subject: Thanks Again
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:41 am 
Thanks again everyone. I have electronic ignition in the car (car is 73, engine is 78 ). My understanding is that the 73 also had electronic ignition. It came that way and was running at one time. You know I have wondered if I was 180 off. However, even with the original distributor, it ran at one time and when I put in the replacement distributor, I put it in the same position as the old one. I guess going 180 and trying that certainly can't hurt at this point since it won't run now...the worst that could happen is it still won't run and the best is it could start. I have also thought of a gear tooth at a time. The other thing I thought of is rearrange the distributor wires...keep the firing order correct, just rotate each wire one position clockwise and go all the way around until it works.....is that a crazy idea?? :twisted:


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 Post subject: On the Other Hand
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:55 am 
Is it likely that I am 180 off if the harmonic balancer lined up with the timing marks when the timing sprockets were indexed right??? I am going to try going 180 from where I am but how could it be 180 off when it was all lined up when I put it back together??? :shock:


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