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63Dart170
 Post subject: Oil question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:04 pm 
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I've seen oil that's made for cars before 1980 or 1985 (can't remember the year on the label). Anyone using that on their engines?

Well, actually IN their engines?
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1967 Dart
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:38 pm 
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I tried Valvoline Max Life 75,000+ miles -oil twice. Cars were 1982 and 1980.

The result at the both times was remarkably increased oil consumption. I'd rather choose "normal" mineral oil from some known brand.

An old engine is an old engine. Oil doesn't turn it into a new and cure hardened gaskets. I personally think this kind of oils are onky marketing trick.
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FrankRaso
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:35 pm 
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440_Magnum
 Post subject: Re: Oil question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:56 am 
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Location: Austin Texas
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Quote:
I've seen oil that's made for cars before 1980 or 1985 (can't remember the year on the label). Anyone using that on their engines?

Well, actually IN their engines?
I've never used any, and have always just assumed they were snake-oil. But it turns out that some, in particular Valvoline MaxLife, are actally very good synthetic-blend oils. I wouldn't use a no-name oil or one that claims to cure leaks, but MaxLife and a few others are really just aimed at older engines that like higher levels of oil additives tan newer ones.

That said, I still don't USE them. I use Rotella T synthetic 5w40 in the 125k mile Jeep and 140k mile '69 R/T, Mobil 1 0w30 in the wife's PT, and I'm doing an experiment with Royal Purple 0w40 in the rebuilt (30k miles since rebuild) 440 in my '66. I doubt I'll stick with it, its just too damn expensive. But the engine seems to really like it a lot.

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63Dart170
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:48 pm 
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I asked this question in reference to the oil made for cars built before 1985 with extra additives.

I've heard of people that have used new oil in their old cars (with solid lifters, like my 63) and the camshaft got damaged. I was under the assumption that the oil I've found would be better with more additives, which would be better for the increased friction of solid lifters. But as I understand it, Rotella or other diesel oil would be OK to use.

I wasn't talking about the high mileage oil.

Will any harm come to my engine if I keep running new oil?
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RustyRamcharger
 Post subject: Re: Oil question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Location: northern NJ, USA
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Quote:
I've seen oil that's made for cars before 1980 or 1985 (can't remember the year on the label). Anyone using that on their engines?

Well, actually IN their engines?
The newest oil, API "SM", has 800 ppm ZDDP (zincdialkyldithiophosphate). Flat tappet lifters/cams require a minimum of 1,000-1,200 ppm to survive. Other than this, the current generation of oils is far better than anything from the past.

You can use an oil additive like General Motors "Engine Oil Supplement" (EOS). EOS was discontinued as a GM part a while back, then reintroduced under a Delco part number. It may have been brought back as a GM part. Its ~$10/bottle, which treats 5 quarts of oil. Any GM dealer will have it.

Comp Cams sells ZDDP additive. www.compcams.com

I use http://www.cam-shield.com The vendor happen to work for Castrol in his daytime job. He was at ACN last July and was charging $20 for the larger bottle. Only 1/4 oz per quart of oil is required for most engines, or 1/2 oz/quart for break-in only.

If you want to use synthetic oil without having to fool with additives, use Mobil-1 0W-40 European Formula. It has 1200 ppm ZDDP iirc. This oil is one of a very few approved for use in Audi and other high-end cars.
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SlantSixDan
 Post subject: Re: Oil question
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Quote:
The newest oil, API "SM", has 800 ppm ZDDP (zincdialkyldithiophosphate). Flat tappet lifters/cams require a minimum of 1,000-1,200 ppm to survive.
Mmmmmaybe. There's data to support the idea that 1,000 to 1,200 ppm ZDDP is optimal for flat-tappet cams; see here. But, that data's old, and there's newer information (also here) that the ZDDP scare is even more exaggerated than the unleaded-gasoline scare or the Freon-12 scare: there is plenty of life after all three.
Quote:
You can use an oil additive like General Motors "Engine Oil Supplement" (EOS). Its ~$10/bottle, which treats 5 quarts of oil.
If you have determined to use a ZDDP additive, a whole bottle of EOS would be massive, huge overkill! See here.

Me, I run 0w40 synthetic in my '71 Dart, and it seems to work very well, tho I haven't done any oil analysis.

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Charrlie_S
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:31 am 
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On a new rebuilt engine, or a new cam, I add 1 qt of GM EOS. There after I add 1/2 pint per oil change.

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63Dart170
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Thanks for the info and the input. I'll cease to be as scared as I was. My great uncle knows someone who (yeah, I know you've all heard stories like that) had a camshaft wear out after 2 years after a rebuild.

I'd guess it wasn't broken in properly or didn't have the right assembly lube or whatever. I did see the inside of my engine a year after it was first rebuilt and it looked fine to me.
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FrankRaso
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:47 pm 
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I think you're better off using an oil manufactured with the right additives rather than adding your own. I've been researching motor oils lately and plan to use a 0W-30 or a 0W-40 like Dan. As long as it is a diesel oil with a CI-4 or CI-4+ rating, there should be enough ZDDP in it to prevent any flat tappet wear issues. Besides, excessive amounts of additives can cause fouled plugs. For most slant 6 engines, I think a CJ-4 should still have plenty of wear protection and oils like ESSO XD-3 Extra 0W-40, for example, are commonly available at Walmart:

ESSO XD-3 Extra Data Sheet

Dan, which 0W-40 are you using?
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SlantSixDan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:05 pm 
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I was rummaging round in the trunk today and find I'm wrong, in fact what's in the crankcase is Castrol Syntec 5W40. Up here, Shell offer a not-widely-promoted full-synthetic Rotella-T SB 5W40 still certified to gasoline engine service spec SJ (as well as the relevant diesel specs) which costs significantly less than other synthetics; I may shift to that.

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FrankRaso
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:47 am 
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The Castrol Syntec 5W-40 data sheet lists the 100°C viscosity at 14.0 cSt but doesn't list anything at 40°C. A comparable Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W-40 lists the 40°/100°C viscosities at 98 and 14.7. The Shell Rotella T SB data sheet doesn't list 5W-40 but a full synthetic 0W-40 is available.

For comparison, Esso Universal HD 30 lists its 40°/100°C viscosities at 100/11.9 (102/12.0 for the XD-3 Extra). Therefore, a 5W-40 seems to have slightly better cold flow than a straight 30 weight oil along with a much better pour point (-48°C vs -24°C).

I checked around a bit more and a comparable Exxon XD-3 Extra 0W-40 doesn't seem to be as common in the USA as the Esso version is here in Canada. As an alternative to the Esso 0W-40, PetroCanada has a Duron E Synthetic 0W-40 with similar properties.

The advantage with the 0W-30 or 0W-40 synthetics is that their base stock is a 30 or a 40 weight oil and do not require viscosity modifiers to flow well in cold temperatures. Mineral oils start off as low viscosity base stocks (like 5W and 10W) and viscosity improvers are added so that they flow like 30 or 40 weight oils in hot temperatures.
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Aggressive Ted
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 11:55 am 
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For what it's worth I have been running the 0-30W Mobil 1 synthetic in my rebuilt SL6 the last year and a half. I switched over right after I hit 20,000 mile mark from initial fire up. The oil does help with the mileage and start ups are quick. The engine runs super quiet with it and about 1 mpg better mileage.

However, I noticed the Rotella 5-40W synthetic in a 5 quart jug at Walmart for $19. The 0-30W Mobil 1 keeps going up. It was $22 for a 5 quart jug last year and this year it is $26.

I am concerned about the lower levels of zinc in the Mobil 1 0-30W synthetic compared to the Rotella 5-40 synthetic.

Any thoughts?

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Joshie225
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:27 pm 
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A long read, but very informative.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq.ph ... oil_basics

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FrankRaso
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:43 am 
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I went on the Mobil 1 web site and did the "help me decide" for a 1980 Plymouth Volare (3.7L 6 cylinder, 20,000 miles/year, out of warranty) and got the following results for "ultimate protection":
Quote:
What's the right oil for my car?
Our products in the viscosity right for your vehicle We've taken what you told us about your vehicle and driving conditions, and using an auto industry database, have determined our products in the viscosity recommended by your vehicle manufacturer. These products are shown categorized by the level of protection they provide. To learn more about a product, click its name.

Current Vehicle:
Year: 1980
Make: Plymouth
Model: Volare
Engine Type: 6cyl. 3.7Liter Naturally Aspirated


Ultimate Protection

Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10W-30
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 10W-30 fully synthetic motor oil is designed for today's longer service intervals. It provides guaranteed performance and protection for 15,000 miles or one year. Mobil 1 Extended Performance products with the Advanced SuperSyn System contain extra performance additives to help deliver outstanding engine protection.

Mobil 1 10W-30
A fully synthetic motor oil, Mobil 1 10W-30 with SuperSyn Technology, exceeds warranty requirements for gasoline engines where an API certified oil is specified. Mobil 1 is recommended by leading car manufacturers as initial fill.

Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy
For improved fuel economy, consider using Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy which is engineered to deliver outstanding engine protection and to offer improved fuel economy in vehicles where SAE 0W-30, 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil is recommended.

SM oils have lower ZDDP levels than SL oils but Mobil is still recommending Mobil 1 for slant sixes. For best wear protection and detergency, Widman (Corvair article) recommends CI-4 heavy duty diesel oils. A SAE 5W-40 diesel oil like Rotella would have similar viscosity to a SAE 30 oil.

My 1965 Valiant owner's manual recommends the following:

Single Grades
SAE 30 - When temperatures are consistently above 32°F.
SAE 10W - When temperature ranges average between 32°F and -10°F.

Multigrades
SAE 20W-40 When temperatures are consistently above 32°F.
SAE 10W-30 Suitable for year round for most parts of Canada, may be used as low as -10°F.
SAE 5W-20 Recommend if temperatures are consistently below -10°F.

You could switch to the 5W-40 diesel oil but your fuel economy would suffer slightly. The factory recommended SAE 30 or SAE 20W-40 for temperatures above 32°F so a 5W-40 would be a good choice as a summer-time oil. Unless you have extremely stiff valve springs, I think the wear additives in SM oils are sufficient for most slant six engines.

Does anyone know of any 0W-30 CI-4 diesel oils available in the USA?


Last edited by FrankRaso on Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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