That's all good. In that case, those comments were for the other folk out there reading, who may be experiencing charging problems similar to yours but caused by the voltage coming from the alternator NOT being seen accurately by the regulator. All due to old connectors and wires. Let us know how things work out with the new regulator.
Sam

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Dan,

A Napa Echlin VR 1001 is now installed, still getting 14.9 – 15.2 V at fairly steady park idle of 1000-1050 rpm, rather, not loping much. Steady amp gage needle kissing top right corner of white zero point.

Headlights on in park 1000-1050 rpm, 11.5-12 V. steady amp gage just inside of white zero mark.

Headlights off, 500-600 rpm pronounced lope in drive, 12.3-13.7 V, amp gage osculating center of white zero to top right corner of zero mark.

Headlights on, in drive idle loping 500-600 rpm, 11.5-12V, amp gage osculating center of white zero mark to left out of white mark.

I did notice when new unit was cold it produced higher voltages than when warmed. Notes on instructions indicate that this is normal.

Just what should the battery be receiving for a normal charge voltage to a fully charged battery?

What voltage should a fully charged battery produce? My battery showed 13.3V charged.


Bill

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

I think you'll find low line voltage on the wire running from the ignition switch to the voltage regulator. Try disconnecting that wire, then running a test lead from battery positive (or alternator B+) to the "IGN" terminal on the regulator. Start the engine and check the voltage.
Depends on ambient temperature, but at about 1000 to 1200 rpm and no lights or devices switched on, I'd want to see 13.3 to 13.8 volts or so.
That includes the misleading surface charge. To find the actual voltage, shut off the engine, turn the headlights on high beam for sixty seconds or so, turn them off, and then see what the voltage is. It should be in the very close vicinity of 12.6 to 12.8 volts.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

[quote][quote]wjajr wrote:
Dan,

A Napa Echlin VR 1001 is now installed, still getting 14.9 – 15.2 V at fairly steady park idle of 1000-1050 rpm[/quote]

I think you'll find low line voltage on the wire running from the ignition switch to the voltage regulator. Try disconnecting that wire, then running a test lead from battery positive (or alternator B+) to the "IGN" terminal on the regulator. Start the engine and check the voltage.[/quote]

With jumper feed from battery, voltage between ¼-20 bolt “Battâ€￾ & battery is 12.3V


[quote][quote]Quote:
Just what should the battery be receiving for a normal charge voltage to a fully charged battery?[/quote]

Depends on ambient temperature, but at about 1000 to 1200 rpm and no lights or devices switched on, I'd want to see 13.3 to 13.8 volts or so.[/quote]

70* F, engine not fully warmed up, but off choke & high idle after several load tests on battery & starts; 13.8V.

After several restarts & headlight drawdown battery voltage testes, charge dropped to 12.2V & amp gage shows slight discharge.


[quote][quote]Quote:
What voltage should a fully charged battery produce? My battery showed 13.3V charged.[/quote]

That includes the misleading surface charge. To find the actual voltage, shut off the engine, turn the headlights on high beam for sixty seconds or so, turn them off, and then see what the voltage is. It should be in the very close vicinity of 12.6 to 12.8 volts.[/quote]


12.6 volts after 60 second load, and several restarts.

Dan, I have been feeding Holley choke heater from 12 V side of ballast resister. Is there a better point to tap switched 12V for choke & a three wire 02 heated sensor for carburetor tuning?

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

First off I screwed up, where terminals on Vr1001 are not labeled I of course connected battery jumper to "Field" screw terminal. Thank you Murphy…so, most of the previous test readings are moot, excepting battery draw-down voltage.

With + battery jumper connected to IGN terminal, amp gage is swinging wildly charge to discharge at 1000 rpm. This is not a good sign I assume.

Charge voltage with jumper and 1000 rpm is around 14.2 volts.

More background information that I just recalled. I don’t know if this makes any difference or not, but last summer I managed to disconnect lead from voltage regulator off of the field terminal of alternator, and drove the car about 12 miles in this condition. Would this cause charging problems once that lead was reconnected?

Should I take the alternator in for a bench test?

Is new regulator junk now?

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Ooops…this stands a chance of having quick-fried your new regulator.
Nope.
Wait, wait...this contradicts what you just said about swinging wildly.
No...it would just mean the alternator isn't charging during the time that wire is disconnected.
You might want to. Take it to a good, competent auto electrical rebuilder, not a big-box parts store.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hope not. But this would be in line with the last week’s crappy events.



Amps & Voltage --- current flow and potential. Did not notice plus / minus sign alternating on volt scale of VOM.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Today I got the battery, alternator, and both mechanical & electronic voltage regulators professional tested by an old time alternator rebuilding shop. The battery was only at 66% or so of its cold cranking amp capacity, so I replaced it. Both voltage regulators gave a 14 volt output from the alternator on the bench, the guy said that was where most older stile units test out at.


Than I checked all equipment grounds servicing headlights, spark control, voltage regulator, electric choke, block, head, and electric choke; all points tested were 0.01 volt difference to the battery which is nothing. Battery terminals were cleaned, and battery fully charged before any tests were conducted.

I reinstalled all components using the electronic voltage regulator, warmed up the engine so it would idle down to 1000 rpm in park, checked voltages at five points, and than at 600 rpm both with lights on, and off:

Alternator batt. terminal to its case:
1000 rpm ---------600 rpm
Lights on 15 v-----12.1 v
Off 15.2 v--------14.2v

Neg. Battery to alt. Batt terminal:
Lights on 15 v-----12.1v
Off 15.2v----------14.0 v

Battery to Batt terminal on voltage regulator:
Lights on 13.7v----10.7v
Off 14v------------12.9v

At electric choke with thermistor on ground leg:
Lights on 11.9v----10.7v
Off 12.3------------11.0v

Battery plus to Battery minus:
Lights on 14.8v----12.5v
Off 12.3v ----------13.1v

There looks to still be an over charge condition, with lights off. And a slight brightening & dimming of head lights at in gear 600 rpm as the engine lopes up & down, but not enough to be bothersome.

I’m a bit perplexed over this. It’s just a stinking charging circuit for chrips sake.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Bill, there are not so many things that can cause pulsating/shivering lights, and it seems you have eliminated most of them.

1) Bad phase in the alternator.
2) Bad voltage regulator.
3) Bad ground wire causing power drainage, can begin with pulsing lights and gauges. May also be bad ground in other component in the system.
4) Bad battery may cause weak pulsing.
5) Bad or incorrectly sized relay, or - at least in theory - the relay is placed too close to an powerful intermittent magnetic field (coil/spark plug wires?) that may disturb it's function.

The problems started when you added a relay to the lights, so...

Bypass the relay and see if the pulsing stops.
Test with another relay to see if the problem is still present.
Double and triple check all connections yet again, including the relay ground.
If you upgraded and maybe upsized the wiring in the process, did you upsize the ground wires too? Easy to forget it's a loop!

Olaf.

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Aspenized

You're doing well, there. I assume the alternator was checked not only for output under load, but for electrical integrity as well (diodes, stator phases, etc.). Is that correct?
Something's rotten here. 15.2 is too high, and 12.1 is too low. Do you get any high-pitched whine noise from the alternator which rises and falls in pitch with engine RPM?
There's no BATT terminal on the voltage regulator. There is IGN and there is FLD. Judging by your numbers I am guessing this was measured with the voltmeter's red probe on the regulator IGN terminal and the black probe on battery negative. Please confirm or correct.
These numbers look wonky to me. You've got too high a voltage with lights on at 1000 rpm, too low with lights on at 600 rpm...but you've got too low with lights off at 1000 rpm and within normal range with lights off at 600 rpm. Line voltage does not usually go up as engine speed goes down, is it possible the 12.3v and 13.1v figures are reversed?
I still suspect your alternator, which appears to be exhibiting behavior typical of thrown-together "remanufactured" junk. There is wide physical interchange of rotors and stators, but the electrical compatibility is much, much narrower. Physical interchange is the only kind considered by the "remanufacturers", and the result is mismatched components that often give very poor low-RPM charging performance such as you are experiencing. Unless you specifically ask for an output-versus-speed test or plot, this is not something you'll usually get even from a good auto electrical house. Another problem that can spoil low-RPM output is a shorted or open diode. And even if the alternator's in fine electrical condition and all parts are compatible, if the alternator pulley is not the correct size for the application, the alternator won't be spun fast enough to charge adequately at low RPM. What's the diameter of your pulley?

I think your surging is dipping you in and out of the lower edge of the alternator's ability to charge, and it is a bit of a closed loop: the improved ignition that occurs when voltage rises causes the engine speed to increase, which spins the alternator faster, which causes the voltage regulator to lower field current, which drops line voltage, ignition quality decreases, engine speed drops, voltage regulator pours on the coal, engine speed increases, lather, rinse repeat.

There is no need to "bypass the relay" (...operator???) -- simply disconnect the feed leads that go from your power takeoff point, whichever one you picked, to the #30 terminals of your low and high beam relays. See if anything changes. It seems unlikely to me, for if you had the kind of dead short circuit in your new headlamp wiring that would drag line voltage as low as you're seeing, you'd be popping the fuses and/or barbecuing the wires in your headlamp harness. But perhaps something in your headlamp setup isn't hooked up correctly and is making problems, so temporarily disconnect it and see what happens.
Since your regulator has a clean bill of health, let's turn our attention to those potentially indicative readings from battery negative(?) to regulator IGN(?) and let's keep in mind we're still dealing with a suspect alternator.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Dan:

[quote]You're doing well, there. I assume the alternator was checked not only for output under load, but for electrical integrity as well (diodes, stator phases, etc.). Is that correct?[/quote]

Quote from shop guy; “checks out electrically.â€￾

[quote]Something's rotten here. 15.2 is too high, and 12.1 is too low. Do you get any high-pitched whine noise from the alternator which rises and falls in pitch with engine RPM?[/quote]

No noise of any kind that I can hear.

[quote]There's no BATT terminal on the voltage regulator. There is IGN and there is FLD. Judging by your numbers I am guessing this was measured with the voltmeter's red probe on the regulator IGN terminal and the black probe on battery negative. Please confirm or correct.[/quote]

Yup; Batt = IGN. I believe that black VOM lead was on battery negative terminal, as no negative readings.


[quote]Battery plus to Battery minus:
Lights on 14.8v----12.5v
Off 12.3v ----------13.1v[/quote]

Poor typing & dyslexia, and wrote note for this test in reverse order on clip board… sorry this is why I’m not allowed to balance the check book…

Should read:
Battery plus to Battery minus:
Lights on 14.5v----12.5v
Off 14.8v ----------13.1v


That 600 rpm is where tachometer points most of the time, but rpm rolls up & down between high 400’s to mid 600’s. That cam dose not like any rpm below 800 rpm.


[quote]Another problem that can spoil low-RPM output is a shorted or open diode.[/quote]

Wouldn’t the electrical test have shown a bad diode?


[quote]And even if the alternator's in fine electrical condition and all parts are compatible, if the alternator pulley is not the correct size for the application, the alternator won't be spun fast enough to charge adequately at low RPM. What's the diameter of your pulley?[/quote]

2 3/4th inches in diameter.


[quote]simply disconnect the feed leads that go from your power takeoff point, whichever one you picked, to the #30 terminals of your low and high beam relays. See if anything changes.[/quote]

I’ll have to perform this test tomorrow, Mrs wjajr won’t go for this car running in the “Man Caveâ€￾ under her bed tonight. This car is not Rolls Royce quiet…


Olaf:

[quote]5) Bad or incorrectly sized relay, or - at least in theory - the relay is placed too close to an powerful intermittent magnetic field (coil/spark plug wires?) that may disturb it's function.

If you upgraded and maybe upsized the wiring in the process, did you upsize the ground wires too? Easy to forget it's a loop![/quote]

I mounted the headlight relays adjacent to alternator, they work as intended. Grounding of headlight circuits are individual #12 conductors from each bulb back to battery, grounding of each relay is #16 to alternator’s case.

Lights did pulsate before relay up grade, but not as pronounced perhaps due to lower voltage feeding them. Battery has been boiling over for sometime now. It may have started summer of 2009; it is not something I noticed until battery tray became corroded. After the third repaint the light" came on... if you get my drift. When I purchased the car it had a rubber mat under the battery, so perhaps it was acting up before I got it. I don’t know, the car only goes about 3000 miles a year.

For your viewing pleasure:

[img]http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm87/wjajr/1967%20Dart/100_1479.jpg[/img]

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Let's try and help Bill by keeping our responses within the realm of things that actually happen in this universe.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Then I'm narrowing my focus on the readings you got in that test. The voltage you see at the "IGN" terminal of the voltage regulator should be very close to the voltage you see across the battery. Did you ever retry the jumper wire test previously gone awry?

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Not yet with the jumper.

Once I fire that thing up for previous suggested test less headlights, I will firstly jump battery to IGN for a reading, than disconnect lights for additional readings.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC