I just realized that since my 833 transmission is hydraulic, I can ~probably~ use any hydraulic clutch pedal that goes into my '65 dart. (I'm converting from a 904 auto to 833 manual.)

Does anyone have a recommendation for hydraulic clutch pedal assembly? I've been having a difficult time finding a 63-66 clutch pedal assembly at a reasonable price.

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~Less think, more do

ughhhh unless your car was converted, its mechanical linkage not hydraulic, do the search this topic has been covered, I would be intrested to see pics of the setup. I personally will be using a hydraulic pedal out of a 1992 nissan 300zx (Z32) with a aluminium clutch master and slave from the same car in my 1979 Plymouth Volare 2dr,

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

hi sages- dont like hydraulic clutches at all. can come up with only two reasons for them: 1. if it is impossible to do a mechanical actuation( z bar/fork etc. or cable actuator) which is a common problem in front wheel drive 2. and only if you can have an external slave cylinder. some of these hydraulic systems like saab and saturn have an internal slave cylinder/throw out bearing inside the transaxle which usually leaks first and is a nightmare to replace(10hrs in the saturn) . a better system uses a clutch fork through the bell housing which is actuated byan external slave cylinder which you can easily replace when it starts leaking(like in a honda or camry). you wont get clipped for 2k at a shyster dealer for the internal slave cylinder . thinking of starting a thread on what ill call damn fool devices which have been added to cars allegedly as improvements which should actually be dumped with a return to the better prior system(interference engines, hydraulic clutch, non sealed beam headlights(do you like paying big$to clean plastic headlight faces?), automatic chokes, etc.) . could write a small book on this bullqueet. remember when poehler used to issue a rant about this stuff in thesl6news. regards paladin

I'm new so I might/probably be missing something. So, let me be clear.

I have a '65 Dodge Dart 270 with a 904 (automatic) transmission that I want to convert to a 4-speed (with O/D). After months of looking, my friend and I were able to pull a cheap working hydraulic 833 from an '86 dodge pickup. Unfortunately, the truck was in the crusher by the time we got to it. Luckily, the transmission and bell housing were intact, but we could not get to the clutch pedal assembly at all. Also, I do not think the clutch pedal assembly would have fit. So, I was just happy to get the transmission and bell housing (which accepts hydraulic).

Now, I must find a clutch pedal assembly. I was looking for one that came with a '65 dodge dart, but those cost > $300, which is way more than the transmission and bell housing! So, I then realized I could probably put in a 'regular' hydraulic clutch pedal assembly. I then posted asking for recommendation--hoping someone has done this before and could point me to something nice and not expensive.

Volare,

Thanks, I will look into '92 Nissan aluminum clutch with master and slave.

Fisher,

Thanks for comments. I will see if the slave cylinder can be external.

~PauloftheWest

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~Less think, more do

dunno what you got around there but there are a crap load of '95-'99 mitsubishi eclipse's in the boneyard near me, just did a full aluminium clutch master and slave on my 5spd swap in my 2000 Neon. I could take some pics this weeked of the pedal setup for you, pending jacksonville doesn't get hit by this "now" cat1 hurricane, supposed to be a cat 3 when it hits,

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

Fisher,

The slave cylinder is external, so thank you for the comments. I think this will be a good conversion.

Volare,

I will see if there are any '95-'99 mitsubishi eclipse's around. If I have trouble, I sometimes pass through Jacksonville and might pick up a set.

Ya, the hurricane is suppose to hit us and be cat3 as well. We will see what happens. A good number of times the weather guessers are wrong.

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~Less think, more do

I recently converted two 1965 darts from 904 to 833 od & used hydraulics hooked directly to original standard shift 63 to 66 hanging pedal arrangements.

I have 50 pictures & a Terminology/Theory/Design/Installation/Adjustment detailed writeup with references to each picture.

Send me a PM with your email & I'll send you the above which show how to modify & install Wilwood Master Cylinder & Slave cylinder plus adapters to properly stroke the clutch fork the correct amount.

I also have two spare clutch/brake hanging pedal assemblies.

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1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/

.... or you could post them here for everybody to enjoy/learn from your experiences,

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

Try this:
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjvZ7J54

I put together the summary above.....

The whole set has 66 pictures showing each detail which only the committed would need.

Since the instructions were written for my daughter & her 65 Dart (3300 miles away) matches my 65 dart; I was able to roadtest the system on my dart, make an almost duplicate setup for hers (adapters, cylinder modifications, fittings, brackets, etc). Her car has a shorter clutch fork so I added extra adjustment features to her adaptors.

There is no technical data for making the adaptors or modifying the cylinders since I made them already for her but if there was enough people interested I could develop that info & add it.

Adaptors can be made with 5/16 & 3/8 24 fine threaded taps/dies, use of long bolts for stock, & use of portions of the original hardened steel mechanical linkage......& of course elbow grease, hacksawing, grinding, drilling, etc.

Anyone in the Davis, Calif area that wanted to help/watch her install this system could send me a PM.

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1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/

What's the advantages and disadvantages of hydraulic and mechanical clutch mechanisms?

Also which one gives you better *feel* aka feedback via foot on the clutch during using clutch?

Cheers, Wizard

I have seem multiple zbar failures on the mechanical system on other's cars & had two failures myself on high mileage cars...leaving you by the side of the road. Used zbars that I bought to repair my linkage turned out to have been welded up previously.

I found several HD dodge trucks with hydraulics.

As far as "feel" goes, the mechanical system has noticeable "travel" at the top of the stroke as the throwout bearing disengages from the pp & the pedal returns to the stop. Minimizing the loose travel is risky as slop in the linkage is needed to accomodate engine movement & insure adequate pullback on the throwout bearing; inadequate pullback burns up the throwout bearing if it lays against the pp.

Hydraulic has no noticeable loose travel to feel since you are stroking the clutch master cylinder piston & not linkage. The force needed to activate the clutch pedal is largely controlled by the selection of the master cylinder bore size versus the slave cylinder size. A smaller bore master cylinder travels more however the force is less.

The biggest advantage to hydraulics is the flexibilty to deal with different fork locations & bellhousings that occur during a transmission conversion. The 65 Dart mechanical linkage z bar is supported on one side by the bellhousing.

An OD conversion bellhousing has different attachment holes & the linkage becomes skewed. Additionally the fork & the linkage do not line up which requires either the fork or the zbar to need revision.... shortening the fork to line up with the zbar link adds more force required at the clutch pedal. Worse the zbar link does not extend far enough down to align with the fork. Lengthening the link adds even more force. In my case the force appear to double at the clutch pedal.

Someone who designs hydraulic systems for a living should jump in here?

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1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/

If you go from driving a vehicle with a hydraulic clutch to one with the old manual clutch you will definitely notice a difference. I've noticed that pedal travel in most of the manual clutch trucks I've driven (usually dump trucks, grain trucks, used and abused) is right at the top. I've had the clutch fork "pushrod" on a Chevy C-60 wear through the fork and render the clutch useless. I've also noticed that with a worn out linkage your clutch pedal travel can mysteriously "change" between shifts.

Just don't get a POS setup like my old 91 ranger had. I had to drop the transmission to change the integral slave cylinder/throwout bearing. Then had to do it again 2 months later when the "new" slave started leaking.

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82 D150-225/727
02 Dakota-3.9/5 speed
87 GMC C7000-8.2 Detroit Diesel/5+2

Wilwood's outside slave cylinder can be purchased with a rebuild kit which I saw as an advantage in quick repairs & minimizing costs also.

The slave cylinder also costs about 1/5 of the integral/in the bellhousing type.

Your point that the slave cylinder avoids transmission removal for both installation & repair was my biggest slave cylinder design decider since I was designing a kit for my daughter's car & I didn't want her to have to pull the transmission to add the hydraulics.

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1965 Dart 110k, 225, Carter BBD Super Six, 2 1/4 single exh., sbp manual scarebird front disc, 7 1/4 rear 2.94 sure grip, 14 x 4.5 OEM wheels, 833 OD with hyd. throwout bearing, HEI, electric fan, ram air/heated air, Accusump. http://plymouthcarclub.com/

also not to knock wilwood (good stuff, but ain't no fun in hot rodding with out getting cheap OEM parts lol) but there are alot of different OEM's with hyd masters and slaves, mitsubishi eclipse's from 95-99 with the 2.0 DOHC 420A engine (same one i swapped into my '00 Neon) and NVT 350 5 spd trans, toyota supra/cressida's, nissan 300zx's, and 240sx's, if you can find them in the boneyard you can normally score them for cheap, and if your not sure it will work, most rebuild kits can be had for $20 or less, personally i will be using a '92 nissan 300zx clutch pedal/master cylinder setup, not sure on a slave, going hunting for more options today lol

-Mike

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I am the Guardian, I hate helos, everything leaks.......

I like internal setup better, more clearance for exhaust. This is from Mercedes Sprinter iirc.

http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/2874209/