Hey Mr. E,
The reason that percolation is in doubt is that the Engine has only been running for less than ten minutes before it is shut down. Ten minutes TO the Grocery Store, and ten minutes BACK to home. It has hardly enough time to get up to operating temperature. Next time that Lorrie Start, which will be tomorrow morning, am going to be driving her to Livingston for a Fuel Pressure Gauge and some other stuff. And will check to see what the temperature of the Intake Manifold and Carburetor is. Also, there is a Phenolic Spacer between the Intake Manifold and the Carburetor base.
Can see THAT possibility. Fuel Pressure Gauge will make THAT apparent.
As mentioned previously, am going to be reinstalling the WA-3 this afternoon after having let the Engine dry out today. Will see if the Engine will start in the morning. If it does, will be driving it the twenty-six mile round trip to Livingston. Will then clamp the Fuel Line closed as you suggest. Will then see if it will start the next morning.
Yes.

Thanks for the GREAT suggestion.

Will let you know how it goes.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
The Bendix Stromberg Model WA-3 is reinstalled on Lorrie's Intake Manifold.

There is no gasoline in the Fuel Bowl.

Am going to reinstall the Spark Plugs later this afternoon.

Am not going to try to start the Engine till tomorrow morning. If it starts, that will be an indication that the problem is fuel leaking into the Intake Manifold overnight.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Friday Morning Update:

Temperature is 48 degrees.

Went out at 7:30 a.m. Turned on the Run Switch and checked the Voltage to the NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module. It was getting 12.49 Volts.

Activated the Start Switch. Lorrie's Engine cranked.

The Fuel Filter filled with gasoline.

Cranked long enough to fill the Fuel Bowl.

Gave the Acceleration Pedal a single pump.

The Choke was closed and the Fast Idle Screw was on the High Step of the Cam.

Cranked the Engine again.

LORRIE WOULD NOT START!

Pulled Number 6 Spark Plug. It had a small amount of gasoline on it. Put it in the Number 6 Spark Plug Wire Boot, laid it against a ground, cranked the Engine and got a BIG, FAT Blue/White Spark.

Gave Lorrie a shot of Start Fluid.

LORRIE WOULDN'T EVEN COUGH!

Am going to pull the Valve Cover and see if the Push Rods are working.

Don't know anything else to do.

Will let you know what is found under the Valve Cover.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey All,
Friday Morning Update:

Lorrie's MIGHTY 225 Slant Six Engine will not start. In an effort to solve this conundrum, am going list everything that has been checked. If there is anything that is not on this list, feel free to mention it and it will be checked forthwith.

Just got done removing the Valve Cover off of Lorrie's 225 Slant Six. All the Valves are working. No bent Push Rods.

NEW NAPA Legend 75 (7565) Battery w/ 12.59 Volts.

NEWLY Rebuilt Alternator putting out at least 13.3 Volts.

NEW FBO Systems VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator.

NEW NGK ZFR5N Spark Plugs gapped to 0.035".

Fuel Pump is working because it fills the Fuel Filter.

Bendix Stromberg Model WA-3 Carburetor. Has a vacuum actuated Choke Pull Off. Has a good shot of gasoline from the Acceleration Pump. Float is not stuck or saturated. Idle Mixture Screw is set at 1-3/4 turns out from being lightly seated. Fast Idle Screw is set so that the Engine idles with the Screw on the Cam at 850 RPM. Hot Engine Idle Screw is set so that the Engine idles at 550 RPM.

The Start Switch activates the Starter Solenoid EVERY time it is asked to do so.

The Run Switch is supplying over 12 Volts to both the B Terminal of the NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module, and the same amount of Voltage is going to the IGN Terminal of the FBO Systems VR-1 Electronic Voltage Regulator.

The Ammeter shows 30 Amps right after start up (when THAT happens), and then goes to about 10 Amps when the Engine is running and the Battery is being given 13.3 Volts.

The NAPA Echlin TP45 Control Module has a dedicated Ground Strap to the Engine Block through one of the Valve Cover Hold Down Bolts.

NEW 3874714 Mopar Electronic Distributor w/ MSD 8.5mm Copper Alloy Centers (advertised to have less than 50 Ohms of resistance per foot)

The fact that the Spark Plugs are firing means that the Standard Blue Streak FD-478X HEI Ignition Coil is functional.

The fact that the Spark Plugs are firing means that the Rotor in the Distributor is turning.

The fact that the Spark Plugs are firing means that the Distributor is triggering the Control Module.

The fact that the Spark Plugs are firing means that the Distributor Cap is doing its job.

All the Fuses check out to be functional.

While sitting here making this list the thought occurs to me that maybe the problem is timing. It might be that what should be done is to take off the Grille, take off the Radiator, and see where the Timing Mark on the Damper is in relation to the Timing Tab on the front of the Engine, and in relation to the TDC of Piston Number 1, and the Rotor in the Distributor.

Have I missed anything?

Comment welcome.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

When the choke plate is closed after tromping the pedal if you apply a little pressure to the plate to open it against the linkage can you insert a drill bit in the gap an if so what size? (checking choke index).

-D.Idiot

Hey All,
Friday Afternoon Update:

First the list of stuff that has been done today.

Removed the Valve Cover to check to see if any Push Rods were bent. There weren't any. Everything was working fine.

Drained the Radiator.
Removed the Transmission Cooling Hoses.
Removed the Upper Radiator Hose.
Removed the Lower Radiator Hose.
Removed the Front Bumper.
Removed the Radiator.

This was done in order to be able to see the Timing Mark on the Damper AND the Timing Tab on the Front of the Engine.

Removed all the Spark Plug Wires.
Removed the Ignition Coil to Distributor Wire.
Removed the Distributor Cap.
Installed the Cut away Distributor Cap.

This was done in order to be able to see where the Rotor was pointing.

Removed the Wires from the HEI System.
Removed the entire HEI System Assembly.

This was done just to get it out of the way.

Turned the Engine by hand using a Breaker Bar, and a six point Socket that fits the Bolt in the Nose of the Crank Shaft, to align the Timing Mark on the Damper with the TDC Mark on the Timing Tab on the front of the Engine.

At this point, it was time to look at the position of the Rotor in relation to the Terminal under Tower Number 1.

The TRAILING EDGE of the Distributor Rotor was EXACTLY even with TRAILING EDGE of the Distributor Terminal. This means that the timing is retarded.

The Rotor SHOULD have its LEADING EDGE even with the LEADING EDGE of the Distributor Terminal. This would make the timing set with "ZERO" degrees of Initial Advance which is what the Shop Manual specifies for this Engine.

Am going to take the Distributor Hold Down Bolt loose, and turn the Distributor CLOCKWISE till the Rotor's LEADING EDGE is EXACTLY even with the LEADING EDGE of the Distributor Terminal.

Will then tighten the Distributor down, and reinstall everything.

So now, some theorizing:

Why would Lorrie SOMETIMES start&run when the weather was warm, but would NEVER start&run when the weather was cold? And why would she ALWAYS start when the Engine was warmed up?

The answer is: When the lubrication on the Advance Plate is COLD, it is sticky enough to prevent the Centrifugal Weights from moving the Advance Plate.

When the weather is WARM, the lubrication on the Advance Plate is less viscous, and a slight amount of Centrifugal Advance could/would occur and Lorrie would run.

After the Engine is warmed up the lubrication would, of course, be less viscous, and Lorrie was running on Centrifugal and Vacuum Advance.

Does this sound reasonable?

Since the Timing Mark on the Damper is set EXACTLY even with the TDC Mark on the Timing Tab on the front of the Engine, the OTHER Timing Tab that has been installed on the BOTTOM of the Engine can be indexed with the OTHER Timing Mark on the Damper so that the Engine can be timed with the Timing Light from under the front of the Engine.

As you may or may not know, this BOTTOM Timing Tab and Timing Mark was necessary because the Timing Tab on the Front of the Engine, and the ORIGINAL Timing Mark on the Damper is not visible from above.

That was why the Radiator had to be removed today, in order to set the Timing Mark on the Damper even with the TDC Mark on the Timing Tab.

Anyway, am going to go out and start reinstalling everything.

Weather here is nice. Am not going to finish today as am getting to be a bit overdone with fatigue. BUT once this is all reinstalled, am betting that Lorrie will be just fine.

Will keep you all updated.

Hope this finds you all doing well.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Your cold grease theory could be correct. I think you are on the right track, especially since you have checked everything else. Keep at it!

_________________
Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

Hey Reed,
Remember, it is just a theory. After looking at the situation more carefully, am not so sure about it.
Am having a lot of angst over this. But what else can I do?
Will get Lorrie all buttoned up and back to where she is all together. THEN, if she won't start, I don't know what else that could be done.

Am in a bit of quandary.

Just got in from reinstalling the Valve Cover. Wanted to get the Rockers Arms covered to keep them from getting dusty. There's a lot of Pine Tree Pollen in the air.

In the process, took a MUCH closer look at the position of the Rotor in relation to the Number 1 Distributor Contact. The Rotor isn't as far past the Contact as it first appeared.

The Trailing Edge of the Rotor is about 3/4th of the way past the Leading Edge of the Contact.

The Rotor's Trailing Edge is NOT even with the Contact's Trailing Edge as previously stated. It now looks to that the Initial Timing is set at maybe 3 to 4 degrees past TDC, and that the Centrifugal Advance would have the Plugs firing a bit BTDC, and the Vacuum Advance would be added to that.

So in the final analysis, the "cold grease" theory may not be as valid as it first seemed.

In any case, the Distributor STILL needs to be turned CLOCKWISE in relation to the Rotor in order to advance the Initial Timing, but the problem is that the slot in which the Hold Down Bolt fits is already as far CLOCKWISE as it will go.

So would the Distributor have to be lifted, and the Rotor turned one tooth COUNTER CLOCKWISE to give the Distributor some room for adjustment, and the adjustment would THEN be to turn the Distributor COUNTER CLOCKWISE to get the LEADING EDGE of the Rotor to be even with the LEADING EDGE of the Contact Point?

All this work to get the timing right may turn out to be just a thing that was necessary, but may not REALLY solve the problem.

At least, if nothing else, we have gotten the BOTTOM TIMING TAB and OTHER TIMING MARK on the Damper dialed in to where it is for sure where it should be.

This is like having a loved one having health problems. Have gotten tired of dealing with it, but can't just give up.

Anyway, it is onward through the fog. What will be, will be.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Mr. D,
The Choke Plate goes completely closed, and the Fast Idle Screw seats on the High Step of the Cam. The Choke Plate can be pushed open about 3/8" with very little effort.

BUT that isn't necessary because the Bendix Stromberg Model WA-3 Carburetor has a Vacuum Choke Pull Off, and as soon as there is ANY vacuum in the Intake Manifold, the Vacuum Choke Pull Off opens the Choke Plate about 3/16".

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

If it has any grease in it to gum it up that might be...if you are sure, time to take it apart and clean out the old lube and use a synthetic lube to coat the moving parts...

That being said this scenario...if the factory setting was TDC for initial, the engine would be at idle speed per the fender sticker or per the manual setting. Because you are using an EI distributor that uses a long loop heavy spring and is not very moderated by the light spring in the mechanism the weights at the low rpm will move the advance until they cannot overcome the tension of the light spring or deadpan against the end of the long loop spring...at 550-800 rpm at the crank there is no advance in a stock EI distributor...so if you set the initial at TDC at idle per the manual, and started the car up (say we get optimistic and use a denso mini-starter which is good for 300rpm), your setting won't get above TDC during start and if the engine lights off at 800...now if you set the fast idle in the 1500-1700 rpm range per the 70's manual this does 2 things...1) when the engine lights it will advance mechanically up to that rpm and have your initial setting + a few more degrees...2) this also puts the carburetor into the transition slots during this fire up (more fuel to richen up a cold start situation with some choke and more air once the pull off starts working)...3) if the carb is in the transition slots the vacuum advance will now be active and pulling more advance to help leanout that 'puddle' of fuel being drawn through the intake and keep the engine at top rpm to affect a faster warmup period.

Regardless, I have yet to see an engine with proper settings not light with a distributor at TDC (I break in all my engines at a base timing of TDC for ease of starting). I think it's cold, and the choke settings and fast idle are somewhat suspect at this point. I also am curious if your heat riser flap is working properly in the exhaust manifold.

-D.Idiot

The distributor has 2 adjustment bolts.

One on top that you can see, and another on the bottom that you can't.

You may be able to get to the bottom bolt without removing the distributor.

_________________
Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Hey Mr. DI,
Am not sure of anything. And the thought of taking the Distributor out, taking it apart, and cleaning it scares me.
Am not sure I understand this.
You are way over my head here.

Lorrie's Starter doesn't turn the Engine at anywhere near 300 RPM.
Lorrie's Fast Idle is at 850 RPM.
Can understand this.
The Bendix Stromberg WA-3 doesn't have "transition slots". It has one hole below the Throttle Plate, and another hole just barely covered by the edge of the Throttle Plate.
Again, this is pretty much over my head.
The Choke Setting is that the Choke Plate is fully closed. The Bendix Stromberg has a Vacuum Choke Pull Off which, as soon as there is a vacuum in the Intake Manifold, the Pull Off opens the Choke Plate about 3/16". Fast Idle is set for 850 RPM. Hot Engine Idle Speed is 550 RPM.
The Heat Riser is perfectly functional.

Well, am going to be reassembling everything tomorrow, and addressing the timing issue.

Mr. DI, I understand some of what you write, but much of it is beyond me.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain this, and had I more experience and expertise, would probably understand more of what you say. Am endeavoring to come to grips with all this. It's a slow and laborious process.

Also, I'm not as agile and energetic as I used to be. I just turned seventy-four years old last January. Am almost at the end of being able to continue doing this kind of thing.

Again, thank you for your response. It is much appreciated.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hi JC,

I have read with interest your plight with Lorrie. Those intermittent type issues or "gremlins" as I call them can and are very frustrating. You are getting a lot of great ideas on your own and from others and I have no doubt you will find your answer at some point. I am impressed with the persistance you have put forth and I am sure in the end it will pay off. My feeling is that it will be something very simple, a partially broken wire, a relay that has its own mind or possibly a fuel leak or vacuum leak. The fact it runs perfectly sometimes tells me it most likely has nothing to do with anything you have done but rather something that will finally raise its ugly head right when you are looking at it. Keep the faith, as hard as that might be. You will get it. Sorry I cant suppy any techical detail but wanted you to know we are all pulling for you...regards, Mark

_________________
If only I had the time to do what I want to do instead of what I have to do!

I just looked at an old car tuneup book left by my grandfather and it lists the Stromberg WA3 settings for both Dodge and Plymouth at the following:
Idle screw turn out 3/4-1 turn. Idle speed neutral 550 rpm. Fast Idle speed 1400rpm. Choke unloader at 11/32".
I would suggest putting your base timing/distributor (engine off) at TDC as you are doing now. Set the carb to fast idle 1400 rpm and see what happens....I bet this setting introduces a bit more air and fuel, keeps the throttle plate open enough to reduce the carb icing phenomenon, and when it lights the engine will be more in it's power band to prevent stalling if it does think about doing so.

I would hope that if that works then reset the distributor to 6BTDC base timing for better mileage and leave it alone....

Good Luck,

-D.Idiot

I never use thick grease on the plates. Instead synthetic oil. It seems to hold up longer and has quicker response. I have seen some distributors with hardened grease and the plates not moving......everything bound up from the grease and rust. Those cars pinged a lot......

Hopefully you can get that choke set right to where it doesn't slam completely shut.

_________________
Aggressive Ted

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74 Swinger, 9.5 comp 254/.435 lift cam, 904, ram air, electric fans, 2.5" HP2 & FM70 ex, 1920 Holley#56jet, 2.76 8 3/4 Sure-Grip, 26" tires, 25+MPG