Hi Everybody - Warm as he&& here west of D.C. and I should
be out tinkering with the truck - but first, enjoyed reading all about
Lorrie Van Haulin & the Frantz Oil Cleanerator... So I replied to that
post but realized it'd be hard to notice and this question really is a
new topic - Could the Frantz Reservoir be fitted with a sawed off
TP filter cartridge leaving room for CRUD during different phases
of SSD's Souper Flush?

DCello

(I'll be offline for a while out in the good weather)


Post subject: (Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:25 am) Reply with quote
FrankRaso wrote:
I may even treat it to an engine flush


Careful-careful-careful. Those "engine flush" compounds you can find at the auto parts store can do a tremendous amount of damage.

I have long maintained that your engine is not a toilet (Chevrolet Vega, Cadillac HT4100 and V8-6-4, and Ford 3.0 owners excepted) and therefore does not need flushing except under specific and rare conditions as a corrective measure. Everyone's got a pet theory on how best to flush a crudded-up engine without pulling the pan. Some methods are harmless but ineffective. Some methods are potentially harmful. Some methods are harmless and effective. For best results, pick one of that last kind.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a safe, effective and fast engine flush procedure. You can pick any two of these three: Safe and effective (but not fast), safe and fast (but not effective), effective and fast (but not safe). The risks fall into two categories:

Softening/damaging engine gaskets and seals so they don't seal well any more
Sweeping large amounts of dirt and crud from its resting place into the oil filter, which plugs and goes into bypass mode, sending the cräp directly to the bearings and quickly failing the engine. I watched this happen to a Chev 305 once. It was quite a spectacle.



Those "5-minute engine flush" compounds mostly contain Butyl Cellosolve,
which is a specialized solvent that's very good at one particular task: Cleaning the mayonnaise out of a crankcase that's had coolant in it due to a faulty head (etc.) gasket. Their use in any other situation is risky.

My own engine flush recipe is a delicious blend of Marvel Mystery Oil (very light weight and good at dissolving gums and sludges), Kroil (best penetrant on the planet), ATF (detergent/dispersant with good lubricity), and Berryman B12 ChemTool (good at dissolving crud too tough for Marvel Mystery Oil). My procedure involves warming up the engine, draining the oil, changing the oil filter, replacing the drain plug (!), and pouring in the soup. For a 5-quart crankcase, I usually start with 1/1/2/1 (Marvel/Kroil/ATF/B12). Then start and run the engine in the driveway at around 1200 to 1700 RPM with no sudden acceleration and no load applied, for 15 minutes.

Shut down, drain (really let it drain, walk away for 45 minutes), change the filter again, repeat with new soup for 30 to 45 minutes depending how gross the first batch of soup was when it was drained and how quickly the second batch of soup cruds up. Check the dipstick periodically.

If the 2nd batch of soup comes out coalmine black and full of chunks, run in another batch of soup (and another new filter!) and repeat until chips, chunks and tar stop coming out when you drain it.

You'll note the filter is replaced before any attempt is made to introduce a flushing agent into the crankcase, and the filter is replaced again every time you drain a batch of flushing soup. Without doing this, you run the very real risk of inundating the filter, which will go into bypass mode and send all the loosened-up crud directly to the bearings and other critical parts: Goodbye, engine, it was nice gnawing you.

I've gotten amazing amounts of corruption and trash out of engines using this recipe and method. Other methods and other recipes may work better
for other people with other cars. And as always, be advised that if the engine is really tired and whipped, even a safe flush can cause additional problems in the form of "new" leaks.

_________________
You mean there's a Slant Six FORUM!?

Personally,I am VERY wary of using this system as the sole means of filtration. From what I could see on their website the system is plumbed into the oil gallery via a small restrictor,so it doesn't bleed too much oil pressure from the engine,the oil then passes through the TP "filter" then drains back into the sump via a return line. So really,it will only filter SOME of the oil AFTER it has passed through the normal filter,so it's really only going to pick up the smaller contaminants,in my opinion its not really a big help in your situation. From what I can gather JC has somehow set his system up as a sole means of filtration,no normal full flow type filter at all.....I can only assume is it still filters some of the oil,but not all that goes to the engine since it's physically incapable of supplying full flow oil supply. To each their own I guess. Have a look at Aggressive teds posts,he has successfully cleaned a few high mileage engines with very good results,maybe compare his "recipe" to dans and see which one works for you. All the best,Steve

If you are thoughtless enough to fall for the bogus nonsense and handwaving used to promote the toilet paper "oil cleaner", the resultant destruction of your engine is well deserved.

Over 'n' out.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Hey Mr. DC,
For anyone interested in the Frantz Oil Cleaning System, here is some JPGs of the Frantz System that is on Ms. American 3.14159, the ONLY 1964 Ford Galaxie 500, Four-Door, Hard-Top, Fast-Back, Police Interceptor that Google finds on the whole World Wide Web.

Ms. American's Frantz Oil Cleaner System is identical to the one on Lorrie Van Haul.

This first JPG is of the Canister which holds the Two-Ply, Facial-Quality, Bathroom Tissue Filter Element.



This next JPG is of the Ring Clamp that secures the Canister to the Frantz Oil Cleaner's Base.



This JPG shows the Filter Element IN the Canister with the Wire Pull Component that makes it easy to remove the Filter Element when changing it. Notice the pattern on the Filter Element. That is made by a Screen that is in the Base of the Frantz Oil Cleaner Base.



This JPG shows the other end of the Wire Pull Component with the Filter Element removed from the Canister.



This next JPG shows the Wire Pull Component by itself.



This JPG shows the interior of the Canister. It is cleaned out and ready for the Filter Element to be installed.



This JPG show the Wire Pull Component installed in the NEW Filter Element.



This JPG show the Filter Element partially inserted into the Canister.



This JPG shows the Filter Element completely inserted into the Canister with the Wire Pull Component in place.



This JPG shows the Frantz Oil Cleaner Base. The Oil comes into the Base, up through the Tube. It is then forced down through the Filter Element and exits the Base to go back to the Engine. Note the Screen. That is what made the pattern in the Filter Element in the third JPG of this series. The Screen makes sure that no part of the Filter Element goes with the Oil into the Engine.



This next JPG shows the Filter Element IN the Canister partially installed over the Central Tube.



This next JPG shows the Canister completely pressed down against the Base.



This JPG shows the Clamp installed but NOT locked down. The Clamp keeps the Canister secured against the Base and there is a Gasket that prevents leakage.



This JPG shows the Clamp closed, but the Keeper is NOT in position.



This next JPG shows the Clamp closed and the Keeper in position precluding any possibility that the Clamp might come undone.



This next JPG is of the Oil on Ms. American's Dip Stick. This JPG was taken in 2011 of Oil that was put in when Ms. American's Engine was rebuilt in 1988. The Oil that was drained from the Engine at that time looked just like this and it had been in the Engine since 1964. Ms. American has had but one oil change in her life and that was when NEW Oil was put in after the Engine was rebuilt in 1988. The Engine had 168,599 miles on it when it was rebuilt. When this JPG was taken Ms. American's Engine had 280,000+ miles on it. She now is less than 1,500 miles short of 300,000 miles. She puts up 80 PSI of pressure when started and when at operating temperature she runs at 68 PSI. As you can see, the Oil is perfectly clean.



These next JPGs are of Ms. American's Valve Train. Note that everything is perfectly clean. There is absolutely NO sludge, grime, grit, or build-up of any kind on any of the components of the Valve Train. Lorrie's Valve Train looks exactly like this too. There was no cleaning of the components before taking the pictures.









In 1988 when Ms. American's Engine was taken out to be rebuilt, the exterior was as dirty as one might expect from an Engine from a vehicle with 168,599 miles on it. But when the Valve Covers and Oil Pan were removed, the mechanics at the shop where I was doing the rebuild looked at how clean the interior of the Engine was and said: "This Engine has just recently been rebuilt." They were amazed at how clean the Frantz Oil Cleaner System had kept the interior of the Engine.

Anyway, I know that there are those who cannot countenance the use of "toilet paper" as an Oil Filter Element and are quick to warn against using a Frantz Oil Cleaner System, but in reality, there is little difference between the FOCS and a regular Oil Filter except for these factors. The Frantz Filter Element has 10,000 times the filtering power of a regular pleated paper filter. And instead of changing just the Filter Element, one has to replace the ENTIRE Filter with a regular unit. And with a regular pleated paper filter you have to change the oil. With the FOCS one just replaces the Filter Element, not the whole Canister. And when changing Filter Elements, one has to top up the Oil supply which replenishes the Additives in the Oil.

As a final consideration, if one will add up the cost of six quarts of NEW Oil and a NEW regular Oil Filter then multiply that by how many times one changes Oil in 300,000 miles, and then compare that with how much one spends changing out a roll of Bathroom Tissue, and a partial quart of Oil, one can see that the savings would be substantial. AND even with regular Oil Changes and NEW Filters, the average Engine still gets crudded up. Not so with a FOCS.

Anyway, I know that this exposition will not change the mind of someone who is rigidly set in his way, but I've had vehicles without the FOCS and vehicles with the FOCS. I prefer having the FOCS on a vehicle because it obviously works, is less expensive, and one never has to go through all the mishagoss of draining the Oil from the Engine because it is dirty.

BTW, when you take the dirty oil out of an Engine and take it to somewhere to have it properly disposed of, they sell that oil to a company that "reclaims" it. That is, they remove the particulates and moisture. Then they resell it as reclaimed oil. What the FOCS does is reclaim the Oil while it is in the Engine. The FOCS removes the pollution and dilution. This keeps the "grit" from wearing on the surfaces of bearings and etc. and keeps acids from being produced out of the moisture that is captured by the Filter Element.

There's LOTS of information about the FOCS on the Internet. If you have an open mind, you might be interested in doing a search and finding out about it. This will help you make an informed decision about it. What you do then is YOUR choice.

BTW, I'm not a dealer or distributor and I don't know anyone who is since my father passed away back in the early 90s.

Anyway, hope this finds you all doing well.

I'll hang in here if YOU'LL hang in there.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Daniel,
At almost 300,000 miles on Ms. American, and almost 200,000 miles on Lorrie, when would YOU estimate that I should expect the resultant destruction of these Engines to happen? I want to be there to see it happen!

Have you seen the JPGs that I posted of the FOCS and how clean the oil and Valve Trains are? They don't look to be in any imminent danger of well deserved destruction, do they? Maybe I'll have to wait another 300,000 miles?

Anyway, go ahead and spend your money on NEW Oil and NEW Filters even though the innards of your engines still get mucky.

BTW, I want to thank you again for the Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor. It is working well, and is without a doubt the spiffiest Carburetor that Lorrie has ever had. Lorrie is one happy camper.

Your friend,

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hummmm.

Considering what that tissue is designed for when applied to the human body it easy to see why it keeps the same organic waste from building up in an engine…

This 2 cents is just a satirical observation not an endorsement.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Hey Mr. W,
Actually, it isn't what the paper was designed to do that is the factor. It's the AMOUNT of paper that is the main factor.

Compare the amount of filtration of a mass of paper the size of a roll of Bathroom Tissue to the amount of filtration of a single sheet of paper such as is found in a regular pleated oil filter and it should easily be obvious that the more paper there is, the greater the filtration power.

There is another aspect of this: One can obtain a roll of paper to be used as an element in the FOCS that was specifically designed to be used as a FOCS Filter Element. It ISN'T toilet paper! It is a roll of Oil Filter Paper. It costs more than a roll of Bathroom Tissue and doesn't do anything more than a roll of Bathroom Tissue, BUT, for those who just can't, (for whatever reason) countenance using Bathroom Tissue, the roll of oil filter paper specifically designed to filter Oil would be the solution.

Still, the caveat about the FOCS leading to the destruction of an engine is particularly ludicrous in light of the longevity of both Ms. American's and Lorrie's Engines. If using a FOCS will destroy an Engine, they both would have most certainly demised by now, if you get my drift.

Maybe Daniel could explain WHY neither Ms. American's or Lorrie's Engines have suffered the destruction that he so direly warned of seeing as to how they both are still in fine operating condition.

Daniel? Would you care to weigh in on this? Probably not (sigh).

Anyway, everyone has a right to their opinion, right?

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

When I was a kid.....(mid 60s) I had a boss who ran a fleet of Ford flatheads running the same Fratzalator Filtration system. My job was dismantling and cleaning 8BA flatheads for "rebuild". They were utilized in 3 ton trucks and beat unmercifully. Those motors were full of sludge and reeked of bad oil. The bearings were pitted and pistons scuffed. The sludge in the bottom of the pans was full of bits of fibre from cheap toilette paper.

Watson's (boss) personal "motorhome" was a Diamond T breadvan with a Merc flathead in it. It got good oil...changed regularly and had a decent aftermarket filtration system. He drove that thing to California and back several times a year. It was clean as a whistle.

Thats where I learned to change oil and good filters regularly.

One summer I helped him install an Olds V8 and Hydro into a 56 chev 4x4 panel......but thats another story. Watson drove a Model C Hal sprint car in the late 30s.....thats a whole book. He showed me the pics....

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Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

Hey Mr. SIBC,
Well, you see? There was his problem. He should have been running a Frantz Oil Cleaner System instead of a Fratzalator Filtration System. AND he should have been using facial-quality, two-ply tissue instead of cheap toilette paper.

The 3.14 and Lorrie have NEVER had a problem with sludge, pits, scuffs or bits of fiber (or anything else other than the carbon that settled out of Lorrie's Oil from sitting for sixteen years) in their Oil Pans.
If you don't have a Frantz Oil Cleaner System, it's a good idea to change oil and use good filters.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

200000 and 300000 miles?? I thought you said the slant was only low mileage from rebuild? 17000 or 25000 miles seems to pop into my mind as figures you mentioned in older posts? The FE engine was rebuilt as well,didn't you mention an old timer ex Holman Moody builder was talking about bearing setup when he rebuilt it?

Its easy to let the facts get in the way of a good story......

JC.....its your truck...you get to believe whatever you want. Lets just say my experience (and others) will prevent me from taking the same path.....................................................2 ply facial quality or not.

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Yeah....Im the one who destroyed this rare, vintage automobile.....

Well said.

Hey Mr. SS,
Let's start with Ms. American 3.14159's P Code FE Engine: My father put a Frantz Oil Cleaner System on it as soon as he got it in March of 1964. He was a Frantz Distributor/Dealer. So it has had one of the FOCS units on it for fifty years.

The Odometer is presently sitting a 98,872 on the third time around.

That would mean that it has gone 298,872 miles, and the old Gal is just 1,168 from 300,000 miles.

Her engine was rebuilt in 1988 with the Odometer sitting at 67,599 miles on the second time around, which would have been 167,699 miles.

I saw it hit 99,999.9 and turn over to 00,000.0 when it reached 200,000.0 miles.

It is now less than 2,000 miles away from turning over again which will be 300,000 miles.
YES.

Lorrie's Odometer is presently sitting at 28,905. This is on the NEW Stewart Warner Speedometer that was put in at the same time that her mighty 225 Slant Six Engine was rebuilt. in 1985.

The OLD stock Speedometer is sitting here on the shelf and it shows 94,373.3 miles on the Odometer. But remember, Lorrie was gotten in 1975 when she was eight years old and she had been used for delivering mail in the Houston, Texas area.

It was right after she came to live with me that my father put the Frantz Oil Cleaner System on her, so she has had the FOCS on her Engine for thirty-nine years

So if we add 94,373.3 (OLD Odometer) and 28,905 (NEW Odometer), you get 123,278.3 miles. BUT... that's if the OLD stock Odometer is still on it's first time around.

I personally have surmised that the 94,373.3 was the SECOND time around which would have added another 100,000.0 miles to the total, making it 223,278.3 miles.

I don't recall how many miles Lorrie had on her Odometer when I got her, but if we take the mileage that was on her OLD Odometer in 1986 when her Slant Six Engine was rebuilt (94,373.3) and divide it by 9 (that was how old she was when her Engine was rebuilt) that would mean that she had been driven about 10,485 miles a year, or about 874 miles a month, or almost 30 miles per day.

I'll bet her daily mail route was MORE than thirty miles.

So if we add 100,000 miles to the amount on the OLD Odometer (surmising that it was on the second time around), it would be 194,373.3, divided by 9 (her age at rebuild), and that would give a mileage of about 21,600 a year, or about 1,800 miles a month, or about 60 miles a day. Which seems more reasonable to me.
YES, at 167,599 miles.
YES. That was Howard Williams, the uncle of Ernie Lozano, owner of Ernie's Motors in Houston, Texas where I rebuilt the Engine.

Howard mentored me during the rebuild. He sat in a lawn-chair in his nephew's garage and supervised the rebuild while I did all the actual physical work.

He had been a Holman Moody line chief when he was younger. That was a fun time back in 1988.

While Ms. American was being worked on, I was using Lorrie Van Haul as my daily driver.

Anyway, how is your weather down under? Haven't seen any reports that it is still unusually hot. The weather here has been in the mid 70s recently. Nice weather, though it is overcast most of the time.

Hope you are enduring. Take excellent care.

JC

_________________
Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

Hey Mr. SIBC,
I am chuckling.
I know that Sandy. I was more just wanting to share my experience with you all, and not so much trying to convince anyone of anything.
I completely understand that things that are out of the ordinary (like the Frantz Oil Cleaner System) are considered to be "gimmicks" by many professional and expert automotive people.

I also understand that there ARE a lot of "gimmicks" out there.

My experience of literally multiple hundreds of thousands of miles of driving on multiple vehicles (I also had a 1959 Studebaker Hawk that had a FOCS and a 1967 Fiat Abarth OT1000 Bertone Spyder that had a FOCS) is that it really DOES work.

It keeps the Oil clean and free of moisture.

The anecdotes, such as paper fiber in the oil and etc., has not been experienced by any of my vehicles on which the FOCS has been installed. And all the warnings about not changing the Oil will result in very short Engine life has not proven to be the case.

BTW, let me mention another strange and maybe weird thing that my father did with Ms. American. He drilled 1/16" holes in the lowest points of the Exhaust Pipes, he said to let the moisture out of the pipes. Does THAT work? I don't know, but Ms. American still has her ORIGINAL Exhaust System after fifty years and almost 300,000 miles of driving.

Ms. American was built on March 19, 1964. She will turn 50 years old on March 19, 2014.

Anyway, regardless of conclusions, this has been a lively and interesting discussion. Am eagerly awaiting the unfortunate (but well deserved) demise of these FOCS equipped Engines. Will let you all know when and how it happens. OK? But I'm not going to try to hold my breath till it does.

Take care.

JC

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Lorrie Van Haul - 1967 Dodge - P200 Post Office Vehicle - 225 Slant Six - Torqueflite A727 Automatic Transmission - Right Hand Drive Steering - Big Three HEI System - Frantz Oil Cleaner System - Bendix Stromberg Model W Carburetor

I wouldn't expect anything less from hot running flat head, breather tube hanging off the oil pan, non PCV equipped running non detergent single weight oil. Any of those poorly vented engines I have had a chance to have seen apart were always caked up messes.

_________________
67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC