Hi Folks!

I have been working on my 63 dart convertible a lot this winter resolving issues. Also the Seattle weather has been condusive for taking the girl out many times this year with nice warm sunny weather.

I have been chasing down a charging issue, To date, I replaced the mechanical voltage regulator in 2011 with a Standard Ignition VR128 Volt Reg. At the time I ran direct ground to the alternator and to the VR case and to negative terminal of battery but did not drive it a whole lot because the motor was pretty gummed up.

Over the winter I added a voltage meter along with an electronic water temp and oil pressure gauge and began monitoring the meters closely. I noticed the voltage going over 15V. Ater reading many threads I began going through the grounds again and cleaning the contact points for the VR and the grounds I ran. I cleaned the battery posts and cables. I cleaned the negative cables contact on the block and cleaned and replaced the block to firewall ground cable.

I cleaned bulkhead connectors and did both resistance and voltage measurements. When running I was getting 14.5V to 16.5V to the battery. I dont find any resistance over .1V which could be considered lead resistance.

I have done the HEI conversion with the GM module and added a relay to power it. I did the headlight relay conversion but I dont drive at night much anyway.

I jumpered the ballast resistor and in checking the voltage there I found it was ~1.5V low so I am getting some voltage drop due to resistance in the ignition switch. I ran a line directly from the battery to the ballast resistor and my high charging voltage dropped to a more reasonable 14.4V at this time.

I also tied both alternator and battery lines together on the firewall side of the bulkhead on one screw down terminal to bypass the dash current meter so to provide current into the passenger compartment.

However I am also having an issue with fluctuating voltages in the charging system from 14.5V to 16,5V. Removing the most recent ground connections made no difference so I pulled the alternator and took it to Oreillys auto and had it checked. Ripple was 0V but it failed the DC output as it was only producing 8.5V.

So a few questions.
1. Can I trust the test from Oreilly?
2. If its bad suggestions on replacement alternator. (I will be reading "The late-model Chrysler alternator conversion thread.)
3. I find some Mopar ignition switch replacements but does anyone have any suggestions on a good replacement switch.

Thanks a million for all the great feedback.

John
N0GCK

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

If you are getting over 15 v from the alternator in the car, the Oreilly's test is suspect. I suspect that they are not hooking it up right and are not putting any field current into it while testing, and all that is exciting the alternator is residual magnetism in the field windings.

"I jumpered the ballast resistor and in checking the voltage there I found it was ~1.5V low so I am getting some voltage drop due to resistance in the ignition switch. I ran a line directly from the battery to the ballast resistor and my high charging voltage dropped to a more reasonable 14.4V at this time. "

The is the 99% likely cause of your charging fluctuations sine you have worked so much on grounds: resistance in wiring and connections from the battery over to the voltage regulator's power input via the ignition switch and wiring. This is the same wiring that feeds the ignition system. This is common. With the car running at moderate idle (like 1000 RPM's) put the + lead of your meter to battery + and then measure the voltage at the power input to the voltage regulator. The service limit of this voltage drop between these 2 points when the car was newer was 0.3 volts. If this voltage difference is, say 1.5 volts, then the system will want to overcharge by approx 1.2 volts to make the voltage to the regulator 'look' right.

Once you measure this voltage drop, then move back point by point in the wiring towards the battery using the schematic. You may find voltage drops at the bulkhead connections, the ignition switch and connector, the fusible link, ammeter, or any other connection point or wire. Each drop needs to be corrected to a very low level, like 0.1 or 0.2 volts max. It may take fixes at several points in the wiring and associated components. You won't fix this problem until you fix this.

Mark B. NM9S

Tnaks for the reply Mark, I am going to move to a relay system to apply power to the ignition systems to remove the ignition switch resistance issue instead of replacing it at this time.
I did have another test done on the alternator and it was putting out 13V which according to the gentleman was low but it may be due to slower speed on their testing.
I have gone through the bulkhead connector and dont see any corrosion or burned contacts or wiring there and dont see much or any voltage drop there.
My biggest concern at this point is the was the charging system acts. At startup the voltage is 12.5V then as the car idles it slowly increases to the 4.5V level at which time it begins to fluctuate or oscillate going up and down about 2-2.5V, it is more difficult to tell with a digital meter as opposed to an analog meter.
It almost seems like the VR is chasing the output, when it drops down VR increases field current to increase voltage but then it senses that it is going up and so decreases field current.
I am considering the upgrade to a higher power alternator with the external sense setup Reed has suggested.
Weird stuff.

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

Putting in a higher-output alternator is not to be done casually; if you don't substantially upgrade the charge main feed wire (and upgrade or bypass the ammeter or convert it to a voltmeter) you are playing with actual, literal fire.

Your alternator test results tell us old news: parts store alternator "tests" are not reliable. If you're interested in learning about the actual health of your alternator, take it to a reputable local starter/alternator rebuilder and have them test it for you. While you (and they) are at it, have your battery put through a load test to make sure it doesn't have a dying cell, which will cause all kinds of weird too-low and too-high line voltage under varying conditions.

Before you change any configurations, run a test wire from the alternator B+ (BAT) output stud to the voltage regulator IGN terminal (the threaded stud/nut one) and see how this changes (or fixes) the system's behaviour.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

Thanks Dan, Ill give that a try, I thought about the battery and that would be next test. Did not think about an alternator shop though. Dang!

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

And by the way, we already know the alternator's capable of putting out more than enough volts; you're seeing that with it installed in the car. If it's in basically sound condition, the voltage it puts out on the test stand is a function of the voltage regulator built into the test stand. The problems worth checking for in what sounds like your case are open and/or shorted diodes.

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.

As above.... solve the voltage regulation issues before any other changes. The sequence of voltage drop points is basically: - wiring to regulator and ignition system from bulkhead
- ignition switch and its connections to the bulkhead feed to the regulator and ignition system
- ignition switch to welded splice in dash area
- welded splice to ammeter
- ammeter to bulkhead connection
- bulkhead connection to fusible link
- fusible link to starter relay
- starter relay to battery +

Your earlier 'bypass' showed there was something in that path that has excess voltage drop.

Finding a reputable auto electric store in the local area proved to be more difficult than I thought.
I had already found the locations for the line resistance and voltage drops, ignition switch was worst offender with a -v of nearly 1.5V at regular current. I moved the voltage sense location to the starter +V stud and wired in a relay to remove the ignition switch path and my cluster voltmeter went to a fairly solid 14.2-14.5V. I replaced the voltage regulator for kicks and grins and it did not change anything.
I unintentionally left the ignition key on and ran the battery down and after having it on my battery charger for 12+ hours my charger indicated the battery was dead.
I had a real load test done on the battery and it failed. So I now have a new battery however this did not clear up the fluctuations I am seeing in voltage.
Once the charging system gets up to the ~14V range it fluctuates roughly 2V which varies with engine speed, being about twice a second at about 2k rpm.
I have not pursued any further alternator tests because the weather has been pretty off-putting here and my convertible top leaves something to be desired and its on my list.
I am looking at pull a part for the alternator upgrade but was wondering if the serpentine belt pulley swap for v-belt pulley is trivial or if there is something for which I need to watch out.
Thanks for all the great feedback and help.
cheers!

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

Some voltage variation is normal. The voltage at the battery should be in the `13.7-14.3 volt range at FAST idle and should not change much with RPM's above that. It will normally drop off as much as a volt or a bot more when you go to low idle. Is part of the 2 volt variation just the drop when going from cruise/fast idle RPM to low idle? If so, that is normal.

What are the actual range limits of the voltage variation and under what conditions? That info will be useful.

I would also check the voltage with a test voltmeter across the battery, and not just the in-dash voltmater; those meters are subject to the internal drops in the harness that sound like they still exist.

This fluctuation issue has been reported before and seems to occur when the sense and alternator output leads have an incorrect amount 'electrical separation' in terms of resistance. This is a feedback-control system and has a response time in the regulator and alternator, and needs some amount of 'electrical damping' to be stable.

The cure for a similar 'hunting' situation was to move the alternator main out to the large lug on the starter relay, not the starter +. The sense line was from the normal point with all the serious voltage drops, like your ignition switch, eliminated.

Thanks for that. Voltage is good, I have checked +V at the battery and it registers the same fluctuations. The real give away is the interior light which follows the fluctuations. I will try the sense point at the relay a opposed to the starter +V and see how that affects the situation.
Cheers!

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

The pulley swap is trivial, but it REALLY helps to have an air compressor and an air hammer to get the nut off. You can just buzz the nut off, remove the serpentine belt pulley, and install a regular old V belt pulley.

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Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.

What exactly are you connecting when you connect the 'sense point'? And the actual voltages and conditions (not just a 2v range swing, but at FAST idle or curse, and low idle) would really help; it may gives some added clues.

BTW, is the original style charging system, with the 1 filed wire to the back of the alterantor and the mechanical regulator? If so, I have to wonder if the regulator gaps are all out of adjustment and commanding too biug a swing in the charging system.

If I understand your question correctly, my system +V sense point has been moved from the ballast resistor where I found the major voltage drop due to the resistance in the ignition switch. My test was to run a direct wire from the positive battery terminal to the ballast resistor which is shunted because of the HEI system I installed.

Yes this is the original one wire alternator.

The regulator sense is the spade connector on my VR128 which replaced the original mechanical regulator back 3-4 years ago.

As far as the voltage swing I am using a digital multimeter which does not lend well for watching swing as well as an analog meter.

The voltage fluctuation follows the engine speed, idle the period is a little less than 1/sec while at 2000rpm it is 2-3/sec. I was getting 14-16V roughly before I placed the relay in line and added the shunt to the ballast resistor. I had relied on tying the alternator and battery line on the bulkhead connector ammeter terminals to one terminal expecting the shunt to have enough ability to provide power the rest of the passenger requirements but found that when I used a 10ga wire across the two terminals it helped to get the voltage to a fairly steady 14.2V. When I start the car there is no pulsing of the interior convenience light until the voltage gets up to the 14V level, then the light begins to pulsate.
Hope that answers the questions. I will check the actual voltage levels at idle and 2000rpm today at the battery and where I connect the regulator and provide them then.
Thanks for the interest and help.

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

Checked the voltage at the starter and the starter relay and are the same at all times and speeds. The link between the starter post +V and the starter relay is only 6" so didn't make any difference in the fluctuation I am experiencing. I checked the voltage at the battery and the fluctuation is actually less than a volt. .I am still chasing the sucker
Cheers..

_________________
Psychics will soon lead dogs to your body!

1963 Dodge Dart 270 convertible

Have you tried swapping a different regulator to see if the behaviour changes?

_________________
一期一会
Too many people who were born on third base actually believe they've hit a triple.