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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:44 am 
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4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:19 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Ambler, PA
Car Model: 1966 Dodge Dart GT
I took of my valve cover today to do a valve lash adjustment. This engine has not been started for many years and I'm in the process of trying to get it to kick over for the first time. 66 dart gt 225.

More info in this post: http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic ... 19&t=65419

Anyway I was a bit taken aback when I took off the cover, everything inside is coated with a waxy black sludge. It looked similar to the old undercoating people used on the bottom of the car. The buildup is not that thick, less than the .020 feeler gauge I was using to set the points

Is this an automatic sign of a re-build? Or is there some way to remedy this? The car has been close to kicking over and does spin with the starter. I really cant afford a rebuild right now so hoping for any good news.

Thank you


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:15 pm 
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Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 9:20 pm
Posts: 13130
Location: Fircrest, WA
Car Model: 76 D100
Quote:
Careful-careful-careful. Those "engine flush" compounds you can find at the auto parts store can do a tremendous amount of damage.

I have long maintained that your engine is not a toilet (Chevrolet Vega, Cadillac HT4100 and V8-6-4, and Ford 3.0 owners excepted) and therefore does not need flushing except under specific and rare conditions as a corrective measure. Everyone's got a pet theory on how best to flush a crudded-up engine without pulling the pan. Some methods are harmless but ineffective. Some methods are potentially harmful. Some methods are harmless and effective. For best results, pick one of that last kind.

I do not believe there is any such thing as a safe, effective and fast engine flush procedure. You can pick any two of these three: Safe and effective (but not fast), safe and fast (but not effective), effective and fast (but not safe). The risks fall into two categories:
Softening/damaging engine gaskets and seals so they don't seal well any more
Sweeping large amounts of dirt and crud from its resting place into the oil filter, which plugs and goes into bypass mode, sending the crаp directly to the bearings and quickly failing the engine. I watched this happen to a Chev 305 once. It was quite a spectacle.

Those "5-minute engine flush" compounds mostly contain Butyl Cellosolve,
which is a specialized solvent that's very good at one particular task: Cleaning the mayonnaise out of a crankcase that's had coolant in it due to a faulty head (etc.) gasket. Their use in any other situation is risky.

My own engine flush recipe is a delicious blend of Marvel Mystery Oil (very light weight and good at dissolving gums and sludges), Kroil (best penetrant on the planet), ATF (detergent/dispersant with good lubricity), and Berryman B12 ChemTool (good at dissolving crud too tough for Marvel Mystery Oil). My procedure involves warming up the engine, draining the oil, changing the oil filter, replacing the drain plug (!), and pouring in the soup. For a 5-quart crankcase, I usually start with 1/1/2/1 (Marvel/Kroil/ATF/B12). Then start and run the engine in the driveway at around 1200 to 1700 RPM with no sudden acceleration and no load applied, for 15 minutes.

Shut down, drain (really let it drain, walk away for 45 minutes), change the filter again, repeat with new soup for 30 to 45 minutes depending how gross the first batch of soup was when it was drained and how quickly the second batch of soup cruds up. Check the dipstick periodically.

If the 2nd batch of soup comes out coalmine black and full of chunks, run in another batch of soup (and another new filter!) and repeat until chips, chunks and tar stop coming out when you drain it. Then it will also be a good idea to service the oil pressure relief valve to make sure it's doing its job, as described in these two threads: thread 1, thread 2.

You'll note the filter is replaced before any attempt is made to introduce a flushing agent into the crankcase, and the filter is replaced again every time you drain a batch of flushing soup. Without doing this, you run the very real risk of inundating the filter, which will go into bypass mode and send all the loosened-up crud directly to the bearings and other critical parts: Goodbye, engine, it was nice gnawing you.

I've gotten amazing amounts of corruption and trash out of engines using this recipe and method. Other methods and other recipes may work better
for other people with other cars. The Kroil people (Kano Labs) have an engine cleanout "soup" of their own they call Kreen; I've had great results with pretty much every one of their products I ever tried, but I don't have enough direct experience with Kreen to comment. And as always, be advised that if the engine is really tired and whipped, even a safe flush can cause additional problems in the form of "new" leaks.
Try this.

_________________
Casually looking for a Clifford hyperpak intake for cheap.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:39 am 
Offline
4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:19 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Ambler, PA
Car Model: 1966 Dodge Dart GT
Thanks Reed for the repost, Great advice from Dan, but is there anything I can do with a presently non running engine? Im getting worried some of this sludge is also playing a factor in getting this engine started.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:47 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:29 pm
Posts: 737
Location: Houston
Car Model: 68 Valiant
What you're seeing is the normal sludge that comes from 54 years of life and the low quality motor oils of years past.

Chances are by the time you reach 54, you'll have a similar coating of sludge inside, and you'll leak a little, also, just like your Slant 6.

Anyway....I'm not sure if you are worried about the valve cover itself, but if you are, scrape off the crud, use solvent to get the rest off, and that's it.

As for the rest of the engine.....I'd do nothing. The sludge that's stuck to all the interior surfaces is not hurting anything. It's (arguably) better to leave it there than to dislodge it and let it circulate through all the tender parts of the engine. I'd run a modern, non-synthetic, high quality oil and change it every 3,000 miles and spend zero time worrying about it thereafter.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:07 am 
Offline
Supercharged
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:00 pm
Posts: 2952
Location: kankakee IL
Car Model: 80 volare, 78 fury 2 dr, 85 D150
If it's thinner than the thickness of the feeler gauge you're trying to set valves with as you say it s, it's probably not as bad as it seems. Doubt it has anything to do with not getting the engine to start


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:20 pm 
Offline
4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:19 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Ambler, PA
Car Model: 1966 Dodge Dart GT
You're right she finally started tonight, thank goodness, i was worried the cylinders woyld hff abe been all gunked up too.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:22 pm 
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TBI Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:39 pm
Posts: 210
Location: Houston, TX
Car Model:
Congrats!! Which one was the magic fix? Valve lash?

_________________
/6 Dodge Charger 69
Image...there's nothing like using the "Search" link above to solve most of your problems...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:43 am 
Offline
4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:19 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Ambler, PA
Car Model: 1966 Dodge Dart GT
Thanks, I really think what turned the corner was the distributor but the valves really needed adjusting too. Just a perfect storm of replacing old parts and adjusting, and the great advice and encouragement of you all.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:56 pm 
Offline
3 Deuce Weber

Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:15 am
Posts: 51
Car Model: 68 Valiant
Congratulations on making it run. Lots of great tips here.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:31 pm 
Offline
4 BBL ''Hyper-Pak''

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:30 pm
Posts: 47
Car Model:
Back in ancient times we would use a quart or two of Kerosene as Dan suggested and let the vehicle idle for a bout 15 minutes. Then change as he suggests and if needed repeat. Then change to fresh oil and filter and drive for about 500 miles or so and change again. Usually solves the problem. If not pull the pan and start cleaning.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:50 am 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:29 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Seattle, WA
Car Model: 75 Dart SE (2),75 Swinger, 74 Dart Sport,91 Ram RV
Our oldest 75 Dart was constantly "sludged" inside the valve covers, but I thought it was just because it was a city-driver and never got out onto the highway to burn that stuff out. Maybe ten years ago my source for cheap priced Quaker State oil went away, and the car was up to 200,000 miles on the engine. I succumbed to using Costco's Chevron oil in it, as it was cheap, and I had already gotten good life from that original engine. In 3 more years of city driving, the leafy, flakey sludge was gone. The only change was the California extracted motor oil versus the Pennsylvania based oil, as they have slightly different bases. (The car was recently wrecked with 300,000 miles on the engine, very mild oil burning.) My take.

_________________
"Louise", a 1976 Dart Custom project, (now sadly reverted to being just an "organ donor" to our other project Darts.)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:42 am 
Offline
2 BBL ''SuperSix''

Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:10 pm
Posts: 15
Car Model: 1967 A108 van
I acquired a 67 A-108 van in the spring of 2019. I got it running a couple months later by just rebuilding the carb and replacing the fuel pump(ran it off a gas can). One day I ran it for over an hour, running coolant system cleaner through the system. Life got in the way the the van was put on hold.

The engine allegedly has about 150,000 miles on it. Assuming(correctly) that the timing chain was the original and that I'd replace it, this spring I pulled the timing chain cover and noticed the engine was gunked up with dried oil crud.

Image

Image

I removed the oil pan. There was a course grained, I guess dried up old oil, that was in the pan. It had clogged up the intake screen. I'm confident there's nothing to flush the engine that would turn that stuff back to a semi liquid state. I'm also confident that once this stuff started flaking off it would clog the pickup screen again. I also wouldn't want that stuff going through the oil pump, if it made it that far.

Image

I cleaned all that up. Then I removed the valve cover. I had already started to clean it up before I took this photo.

Image

Image

Image

There was no way I was going to run the engine again until I got most of that gunk out of there for fear of clogging the oil pick up screen again and possibly causing oil starvation. When I ran it for that hour months earlier, I hadn't thought about crud in the pan and I didn't have an oil pressure gauge and I didn't know if the sending unit was functional but...it idled nice and smooth for that time so I'm pretty sure there was oil pressure.
With the oil pan still off, I scraped the big chunks off. I finagled a small hose inside a wet vac hose to get down in the lifter valley to suck up the chunks. That took awhile as the chunks kept clogging the small hose. I used Kerosene with a parts brush to clean up the head and lifter valley. It took awhile to get all the crud out through the drain holes in the lifter valley but I got it done! All that fell to the ground. The hardest part was cleaning the tops of the lifters.

Image

Image

Image

The van is now in my garage but I had to put the project on hold again. I am getting the engine back together soon.

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:27 pm 
Offline
EFI Slant 6

Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:05 pm
Posts: 274
Car Model:
Quote:

Image

The van is now in my garage but I had to put the project on hold again. I am getting the engine back together soon.

Image

Cool van! You might want to fully seat the fuel pump input hose, and clamp it before use :mrgreen:

{Edit} Nevermind, I see the motor is out of the van :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:34 pm 
Offline
Turbo Slant 6
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:29 pm
Posts: 681
Location: Seattle, WA
Car Model: 75 Dart SE (2),75 Swinger, 74 Dart Sport,91 Ram RV
That is pretty much what our Dart looked like inside before we switched oil brands. East coast crude vs. West coast crude? Idunno.

_________________
"Louise", a 1976 Dart Custom project, (now sadly reverted to being just an "organ donor" to our other project Darts.)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:37 pm 
Offline
Supercharged

Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 6:48 pm
Posts: 3830
Location: Indianapolis
Car Model:
Quote:
I acquired a 67 A-108 van in the spring of 2019. I got it running a couple months later by just rebuilding the carb and replacing the fuel pump(ran it off a gas can). One day I ran it for over an hour, running coolant system cleaner through the system. Life got in the way the the van was put on hold.

The engine allegedly has about 150,000 miles on it. Assuming(correctly) that the timing chain was the original and that I'd replace it, this spring I pulled the timing chain cover and noticed the engine was gunked up with dried oil crud.

Image

Image

I removed the oil pan. There was a course grained, I guess dried up old oil, that was in the pan. It had clogged up the intake screen. I'm confident there's nothing to flush the engine that would turn that stuff back to a semi liquid state. I'm also confident that once this stuff started flaking off it would clog the pickup screen again. I also wouldn't want that stuff going through the oil pump, if it made it that far.

Image

I cleaned all that up. Then I removed the valve cover. I had already started to clean it up before I took this photo.

Image

Image

Image

There was no way I was going to run the engine again until I got most of that gunk out of there for fear of clogging the oil pick up screen again and possibly causing oil starvation. When I ran it for that hour months earlier, I hadn't thought about crud in the pan and I didn't have an oil pressure gauge and I didn't know if the sending unit was functional but...it idled nice and smooth for that time so I'm pretty sure there was oil pressure.
With the oil pan still off, I scraped the big chunks off. I finagled a small hose inside a wet vac hose to get down in the lifter valley to suck up the chunks. That took awhile as the chunks kept clogging the small hose. I used Kerosene with a parts brush to clean up the head and lifter valley. It took awhile to get all the crud out through the drain holes in the lifter valley but I got it done! All that fell to the ground. The hardest part was cleaning the tops of the lifters.

Image

Image

Image

The van is now in my garage but I had to put the project on hold again. I am getting the engine back together soon.

Image
Nice work, you put a lot of effort in to de gunking that van motor with out doing a lot of dis assembly.
Two more places for you to clean out are:
1) service the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump. There is info here at .org on how to do that, of if you can’t find it, post a question and someone will link it.
2) pull the rocker shaft and rockers. Closely note the orientation of the rocker shaft oil holes to assist with re assembly, spray carb cleaner through the rocker arm oiling holes. Flush out the inside of the rocker shaft. If you think the shaft is gunked internally you can knock out the end cup plugs and clean it throughly, but then you must replace the end cup plugs with new ones.

_________________
Doo Ron Ron and the Duke of Earl are friends of mine.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX8Nj8ABEI8


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