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225 Slant Six Fan Belt and Manifold Gasket
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Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
did some research on Remflex Gaskets, and did you know that there is a whole segment of people who absolutely HATE Remflex?
Find me two such people on this site. You won't, so I'll make it easier: Find me two such people working on slant-6 engines. You won't, so I might as well make it harder: Find me two such people anywhere who haven't brought their troubles on themselves by failing to follow directions.

You won't.

In point of fact, I prefer the Australian gasket, but its availability is spotty at best, so the Remflex is a very close second preference and many, many miles ahead of anything that can be bought at the parts store.

As for "some say" vs. "some say" on manifold washers: Follow the instructions at the manifold articles previously linked in this thread.
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Find me two such people on this site. You won't, so I'll make it easier: Find me two such people working on slant-6 engines. You won't, so I might as well make it harder: Find me two such people anywhere who haven't brought their troubles on themselves by failing to follow directions.

You won't.

In point of fact, I prefer the Australian gasket, but its availability is spotty at best, so the Remflex is a very close second preference and many, many miles ahead of anything that can be bought at the parts store.
Hey Daniel,
Am with you on this issue. Was just a bit surprised when Googleing "Remflex" which was being done to see if there was somewhere close by from which to get them (more on that a bit further on) to "accidentally" find a number of forums really bad-mouthing Remflex. Strangely, the most vehement were Suburu fanatics. :)

About finding a place from which to get the Remflex, the Remflex Website had a window that was made to delineate WHERE they could be obtained, but it didn't work! I tried four or five times to get it to work, all to no avail.
Quote:
As for "some say" vs. "some say" on manifold washers: Follow the instructions at the manifold articles previously linked in this thread.
That's what I've been doing.

The article by YOU and Mr. Dutra about Slant Six Manifold Installation has this to say on this subject:
Quote:
The center three studs get cup-shaped round cast iron washers, cupped faces towards the head. Everything else gets triangular butterfly washers.
The three Cup-Shaped Round Cast Iron Washers are on hand here, so THAT could easily be done.

BUT, then the article goes on to say:
Quote:
Note that "later" SL6 engines came with only one round conical washer in the top center position. All the other were triangular type. This combination is also acceptable but installation of the lower, inner triangle washers can be a challenge, especially the one under the choke stove mounting pocket.
The Triangular Washers for the two center bottom Studs are also on hand.

Already, the front bottom Stud has had the Triangular Washer test fitted on it without issue.

The bottom stud under the Choke Stove Mounting Pocket DOES seem to want to be a bit difficult, but I'm sure that with a little messing with it, that the Triangular Washer will go on.

So in retrospect, instead of saying that "some say" VS "some say", what should have been said was that: In one place, your very fine expostulation on the subject says to use the Conical Washers. And in another place it says to use the Triangular Washers on the bottom center Studs, with the caveat that the one under the Choke Stove is a bit difficult to install.

So in actuality, I guess what I am asking is: If YOU were doing this installation, and both applications were possible, WHICH would YOU do?

So here is the situation as it presently sits. Am going to install all but the two bottom Center Stud Washers. Then there is a bunch of other stuff that has to be done (reinstall the Starter, reinstall the Throttle Linkage, reinstall the Carburetor, and etc.) And by the time that all that gets done, will be hoping that I will have had a response from you to my question about: Which would YOU do?

Without a response, will go ahead and try to put the Triangular Washers on the bottom Two Studs since that was the way it was when the dis-assembly took place. If perchance the Triangular Washer under the Choke Stove proves to be too difficult, will go ahead with the Conical Washers on the the two Bottom Studs.

Also, wanted to give you my thinking on going ahead with the FelPro Gasket, even if it doesn't work.

I wanted to get Lorrie up and running which is what I was doing when the OLD dried-out Gasket finally got so bad that it was interfering with progress.

So the FelPro Gasket is a "stop gap" measure that will permit me to continue with getting the Engine going.

Want to adjust the Stromberg Carburetor, adjust the Valves, and get the Transmission to working properly, all which require a running Engine.

And THEN if the FelPro Gasket isn't going to cut it, will go with the Remflex or whatever else is better than the FelPro.

Anyway Daniel, your help is GREATLY appreciated. And I'm having the time of my life doing this.

Hope this finds YOU doing well.

I'm hanging in here.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey All,
Sunday Afternoon Update:

Got the Triangular Washers on the two bottom center Studs. They went on without incident. Then the Brass Nuts were started on those two bottom center Studs.

Proceeded to tighten the bottom rear Stud's Brass Nut to 5 ft/lbs

Proceeded to tighten the bottom front Stud's Brass Nut, but it just turned, and turned, and turned, and turned and wouldn't go snug. Took it back off, looked at it and it appeared to be alright. So took one of the other Nuts off of its Stud and put it on the bottom front Stud. It snugged right up.

Figured that the other Brass Nut was somehow stripped, but it didn't look like it, so it got put on the Stud from which the OTHER Brass Nut came. And it snugged right up. Now this made me want to go "Hmmmmmm!".

So proceeded to tighten the Brass Nut on the bottom Front Stud. Was aiming at 5 ft/lbs, but before getting there, all of a sudden THAT Brass Nut wouldn't go snug either.

Immediately jumped to the conclusion that the Stud was stripped up close to the Triangular Washer. It didn't LOOK stripped but two Brass Nuts wouldn't snug up on THAT Stud. What would YOU think?

Took the second Brass Nut off and it WAS stripped. And it was stripped by less than 5 ft/lbs of torque.

So it isn't the STUD that is stripped. It's the Nut that is stripped! In fact it's TWO Nuts that are stripped! And EVERY Nut that gets put on THAT particular Stud will get stripped!

The Stud isn't stripped, but it has a cutting edge on it that is taking the threads out of any Brass Nut that gets threaded onto it, and it is so sharp that it will do it when just turning the Nut at less than 5 ft/lbs of torque!

Don't know HOW it got to be like that.

Nonetheless, Lorrie is presently back to "square one".

All the Nuts and Washers are sitting in order on the Seat.

The Intake/Exhaust Manifold is sitting four inches away from the Cylinder Head.

The FelPro Gasket is back in the Cardboard Container in which it came.

And the next thing is to remove ALL the Studs, and take them and the Nuts to NAPA tomorrow (if it isn't raining), and get all NEW Studs and all NEW Brass Nuts.

That's the BAD NEWS.

NOW for the GOOD NEWS: Have gotten so good at doing this that it's no big deal anymore.

It's going to get done RIGHT.

Now if I could just afford a Remflex Gasket! :)

And Lorrie is just enjoying the hell out of doing this kind of thing. She is getting MORE attention than North Korea, George Zimmerman, and Lindsey Lohan combined! She just LOVES it when I have to put my hand under her Manifold's "hot box" to retrieve a Triangular Washer or a Brass Nut!!!!

Anyway, am taking a break, then am going to clean up the Nuts and Washers, then pick up the tools, and maybe if I feel like it, I'll take all the Studs out of the Cylinder Head.

Have figured that the way to do that is with a pair of Vise Grips. It's going to bugger up the threads, but they are going to be replaced anyway. Am hoping that none of them will break off. But before doing anything rash, thought I'd ask first: Is there another, more acceptable way to remove the Studs from the Cylinder Head?

Will let you know how things go.

Hang in there everyone. Isn't this FUN?

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey All,
Was telling a friend about what had happened with the Brass Nuts having their threads stripped out by the Stud, and the question arose: Why use Brass Nuts?

My only answer was that THAT'S how Lorrie was when she came to live with me.

But is there a REAL reason why the Slant Six uses Brass Nuts to hold the Intake/Exhaust Manifolds onto the Cylinder Head?

Just wondering.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
And the next thing is to remove ALL the Studs, and take them and the Nuts to NAPA tomorrow (if it isn't raining), and get all NEW Studs and all NEW Brass Nuts.

Maybe if I feel like it, I'll take all the Studs out of the Cylinder Head.

Have figured that the way to do that is with a pair of Vise Grips. It's going to bugger up the threads, but they are going to be replaced anyway. Am hoping that none of them will break off. But before doing anything rash, thought I'd ask first: Is there another, more acceptable way to remove the Studs from the Cylinder Head?
Upon discussing this with some friends, the thought that maybe all that would be needed is to get the proper sized "Die" to straighten out the threads on the one offending Stud!

Would simplify things.

And WHY can't Steel Nuts be used with LOTS of Anti-Seez?

JC
Author:  Charrlie_S [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
The factory used steel nuts, not brass. The two end studs used brass washers.
Author:  slantzilla [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
The two end nuts are also clinch nuts.
Author:  65Dodge100 [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 
The reason for using brass nuts is so it comes apart as easily as it did this time - they don't rust to the stud. If it had steel nuts you problably would have broken 2-3 or 6 studs.

Running a die over the stud might straighten it out. It sounds like some of the threads are rusted off to me. You could also put two nuts on it or a stack of washers so the nut gets to some good threads.

The best way to remove studs is with a stud extractor but vice grips may work fine. Please note the following link is for a LARGE extractor that will not work on your 5/16" studs:

http://tinyurl.com/crbmoh9

One of those extractors from habor freight or one of those places is not very expensive and it gets your knuckles away from the other studs when the vice grips slip. I bought a large one and a small on when preparing to remove my studs. The small one worked great.

Some of them can be in there pretty tight. You have to decide, really decide, you are going to do the job before you start. If you break one off at the head it's time to get the drill out and E-Z Outs which hardly ever work and all that mess. I had to heat around mine with a torch to get some of them out. Some just screwed right out. Most have water behind them which rusts them in place. The ones that broke happened to break with enough sticking out to grab them with vice grips or the extractor. With either tool, you want it as close to the head as possible. The stud is not stong enough to grab it on the end and screw it out.

When you replace them put a locktite thread sealant on them. It will prevent agains't leakes and maybe keep them from rusting next time.

I think the triangle washers were used on the later models for the bottom 2 studs becuause maybe there was some trouble with the triple cone washer set-up. They may have been trying to stop the manifolds from breaking in half - they didn't succeed. Maybe it helped. Cone washers will not let the manifold slide when it wants to expand.

I don't know about Remflex. Many like them, many rave about them. I used the gaskets from Austrailia. I just had to order the header pipe to manifold gasket because the felpro leaked within a week. Remflex was $27 with shipping within the U.S., GPRS,

http://tinyurl.com/d3grxhe

was $15.43 from the other side of the planet. The Aussie gaskets may suck and leak eventually but I'll jump off that bridge when I get there and try the remflex after I dry out.

Your two end nuts should be tapered to fit into the brass washers. You can get "kind" of a couple here: http://tinyurl.com/bn83e5q

They arent exactly right but everyone seems to be getting by with them.


Danny
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yup, the factory used steel nuts. The brass ones are excellent for seize-resistance, which helps on the way on and on the way off: if you had steel nuts your knife-threads on the one stud wouldn't have descrewed 'em. Instead they would've likely taken a solid bite into the steel nut, locked it, and twisted the stud off. The resultant "almost tight…almost tight…just about tight…wait, now it's looser?…awcrap!", like locking your keys in the trunk, happens too quickly; by the time you realize what's happening it's too late and you're…screwed! The brass nuts bought you the opportunity to decide how to proceed.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
65Dodge100: Please let us know how long it takes (took?) for GPRS to send you your gasket(s). They have an unfortunate reputation of taking far too long and not responding to emails, phone calls, etc. If they've gotten back on track I'd surely like to know about it!

Quote:
If you break one off at the head it's time to get the drill out and E-Z Outs which hardly ever work and all that mess.
Agreed; see my tale of woe here. But if you've got marginal studs (crystallised, fatigued, munged threads, etc.) you'd much rather deal with them now that the manifolds are off rather than have to pull the manifolds off again when one or more studs break off on reinstallation!

I have to think the optimal combo would be to install stainless steel studs, polish the rust off each manifold runner "ear" and each flat surface of each washer, brush on a goodly gob of metallic anti-seize paste, and secure the manifolds with brass nuts (plus castles at the two ends).
Author:  JCAllison [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:08 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The factory used steel nuts, not brass.
Hey Charrlie,
But the comment about Steel Nuts making it almost a certainty to break off the Studs makes me want to Brass Nuts.
Quote:
The two end studs used brass washers.
Yes. BUT, the ones that are on Lorrie's two end Studs are not in any way "cupped". They are just big, thick Brass Washers.

May be getting JPGs of all this.

Anyway, thanks for the response.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The two end nuts are also clinch nuts.
Hey Slaantzilla,
"Clinch Nuts"? Is that the kind of Nut that is kind of deformed? Or possibly the Nylon Lined Nut.

JC
Author:  Mroldfart2u [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Quote:
The two end nuts are also clinch nuts.
Hey Slaantzilla,
"Clinch Nuts"? Is that the kind of Nut that is kind of deformed? Or possibly the Nylon Lined Nut.

JC
Yes JC, but not the Ny-Loc... the plastic (nylon) wouldn't stand th heat...
Author:  JCAllison [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
The reason for using brass nuts is so it comes apart as easily as it did this time - they don't rust to the stud. If it had steel nuts you problably would have broken 2-3 or 6 studs.
Hey Danny,
When taking the Brass Nuts off of the Studs this time, three of the Studs came out of the Cylinder Head instead of the Brass Nuts coming off of the Studs. The rest of the Brass Nuts came off pretty easily, though they made this little "squeaking" sound when they were being turned.
Quote:
Running a die over the stud might straighten it out. It sounds like some of the threads are rusted off to me.
Have looked at the Stud VERY carefully, and it doesn't seem to be rusted at all. BUT after removing the second Brass Nut that was obviously stripped, there was this little, extremely thin brass "spring" like "cutting" that was on the Stud. It was removed and saved. There HAS to be some really sharp edge or "burr" on the Stud that is ever so deftly "cutting" the threads on the inside the Brass Nut. If THAT "burr" could be removed, it would stop the cutting of the threads. Am going to give the offending Stud a VERY close inspection to see EXACTLY what the situation is.
Quote:
You could also put two nuts on it or a stack of washers so the nut gets to some good threads.
Had thought of doing that, but decided to try a different Brass Nut, to see if maybe the first Brass Nut was just bad. Ended up ruining a perfectly good Brass Nut in the process.
Quote:
The best way to remove studs is with a stud extractor but vice grips may work fine. Please note the following link is for a LARGE extractor that will not work on your 5/16" studs:

http://tinyurl.com/crbmoh9

One of those extractors from habor freight or one of those places is not very expensive and it gets your knuckles away from the other studs when the vice grips slip. I bought a large one and a small on when preparing to remove my studs. The small one worked great.
Thanks for the reference link. This may be the way to go if indeed it is decided to remove the Studs. BTW, that course of action is one of many still under consideration.
Quote:
Some of them can be in there pretty tight. You have to decide, really decide, you are going to do the job before you start. If you break one off at the head it's time to get the drill out and E-Z Outs which hardly ever work and all that mess.
Actually, it would probably entail removing the Cylinder Head and taking it to Ben Nettles Machine Shop.
Quote:
I had to heat around mine with a torch to get some of them out.
Right. I have propane and acetylene torches here for heating. Had to use them on Ms. American, a 1964 Ford Galaxie 500.
Quote:
Some just screwed right out. Most have water behind them which rusts them in place. The ones that broke happened to break with enough sticking out to grab them with vice grips or the extractor. With either tool, you want it as close to the head as possible. The stud is not stong enough to grab it on the end and screw it out.
Alright.
Quote:
When you replace them put a locktite thread sealant on them. It will prevent agains't leakes and maybe keep them from rusting next time.
That is IF it is decided to replace them.
Quote:
I think the triangle washers were used on the later models for the bottom 2 studs becuause maybe there was some trouble with the triple cone washer set-up. They may have been trying to stop the manifolds from breaking in half - they didn't succeed. Maybe it helped. Cone washers will not let the manifold slide when it wants to expand.
Had decided to use the Triangular Washers, and using the "lollipop" method made installing the Triangular Washer under the Choke Stove a breeze.
Quote:
I don't know about Remflex. Many like them, many rave about them. I used the gaskets from Austrailia. I just had to order the header pipe to manifold gasket because the felpro leaked within a week. Remflex was $27 with shipping within the U.S., GPRS,

http://tinyurl.com/d3grxhe
Haven't yet looked at this, but will. Need to find out about this "Australian" Gasket.

Am aware of the Remflex, and would like to find a dealer, but the search facility on the Remflex Website doesn't work. I've tried it seven times now, and can't get it to give me a window into which to put the Zip Code in order to find the nearest dealer.
Quote:
was $15.43 from the other side of the planet. The Aussie gaskets may suck and leak eventually but I'll jump off that bridge when I get there and try the remflex after I dry out.
Well, Daniel recommends both of them highly, and that makes me serious about both of them. This use of FelPro this time was done as more of an expedient thing. Wanted to get Lorrie's Carburetor and Transmission to working, and to do that needed a running Engine. Was just going to do a quick Gasket replacement, but the project has turned into another "Eating Mule Meat" deal. The more one chews on it, the bigger the mouthful becomes.
Quote:
Your two end nuts should be tapered to fit into the brass washers. You can get "kind" of a couple here:

http://tinyurl.com/bn83e5q
Haven't yet looked at these, but will.

As was mentioned previously, the Brass Washers on each end of the Exhaust Manifold are NOT in any way "cupped". They are just BIG, THICK, FLAT Brass Washers.
Quote:
They arent exactly right but everyone seems to be getting by with them.
Will take a look at them.

Had a severe thunderstorm come through here last night. It's supposed to rain all day. So little will get done with Lorrie due to the inclement weather.

Will keep you updated on events here.

Thanks for the response and references.

JC
Author:  JCAllison [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:02 am ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Yup, the factory used steel nuts.
Hey Daniel,
When Lorrie came to live with me in 1975 she already had Brass Nuts.
Quote:
The brass ones are excellent for seize-resistance, which helps on the way on and on the way off:
I can see the efficacy of them.
Quote:
if you had steel nuts your knife-threads on the one stud wouldn't have descrewed 'em. Instead they would've likely taken a solid bite into the steel nut, locked it, and twisted the stud off. The resultant "almost tight…almost tight…just about tight…wait, now it's looser?…awcrap!", like locking your keys in the trunk, happens too quickly; by the time you realize what's happening it's too late and you're…screwed!
I know the feeling! :)
Quote:
The brass nuts bought you the opportunity to decide how to proceed.
Am thinking that if I can find a steel nut of the proper size and thread that I will try a little trick that my father used to use: Put some toothpaste on the Stud, then VERY carefully put the Nut on the Stud, and GENTLY tighten and loosen, tighten, and loosen, and the very fine abrasive material in the tooth paste will polish away the rough edge. It's like using a Die, only is more a "polishing" than a "cutting". The trick here is finding a proper size and thread Steel Nut in the Nut collection.

Am going to give that a try today because it can be done from inside Lorrie where I won't be working in the rain.

Thanks for the response.

JC
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