Electronic ignition, etc

Unanswered topics | Active topics

Home » Board index » Tech Q & A » Old Message Board

All times are UTC-08:00

Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.

Page 1 of 2

[ 18 posts ]

Go to page 1 2 Next

Print view

Previous topic | Next topic

Author

Message

Gary

Post subject: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2002 1:42 pm

I'm rewiring my '64 Valiant for electronic ignition and have a couple of questions for which I couldn't find answers in a search. Since I've been comparing and re-drafting schematics for 3 hours, my mind's getting fuzzy, so I welcome opinions.

First, I am replacing the single field alternator with a dual field. I am also replacing the original voltage regulator with the stock later-model plug-in electronic version. The ignition system will be the MP unit.

Which wire should I hook up to the 2nd field terminal? The stock wiring shows it common to the IGN terminal on the regulator and the blue/yellow wire on the ECU. The MP hookup instructions say to dead-end the green wire from ECU and use only 4 terminals.

Is there any advantage or disadvantage using a dual ballast resistor from the donor car?

Should I use the coil from the donor car?

Will someone please expound on the theory behind the dual field alternator and the dual ballast resistor?

lancer_41@excite.com

Top

Reply with quote

sandyinBC

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc....link

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2002 4:55 pm

Quote:

: I'm rewiring my '64 Valiant for electronic
: ignition and have a couple of questions for
: which I couldn't find answers in a search.
: Since I've been comparing and re-drafting
: schematics for 3 hours, my mind's getting
: fuzzy, so I welcome opinions.
:
: First, I am replacing the single field
: alternator with a dual field. I am also
: replacing the original voltage regulator
: with the stock later-model plug-in
: electronic version. The ignition system will
: be the MP unit.
:
: Which wire should I hook up to the 2nd field
: terminal? The stock wiring shows it common
: to the IGN terminal on the regulator and the
: blue/yellow wire on the ECU. The MP hookup
: instructions say to dead-end the green wire
: from ECU and use only 4 terminals.
:
: Is there any advantage or disadvantage using a
: dual ballast resistor from the donor car?
:
: Should I use the coil from the donor car?
:
: Will someone please expound on the theory
: behind the dual field alternator and the
: dual ballast resistor?

Try

Charging system upgrade

Top

Reply with quote

Craig

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2002 6:17 pm

Quote:

: Which wire should I hook up to the 2nd field
: terminal? The stock wiring shows it common
: to the IGN terminal on the regulator and the
: blue/yellow wire on the ECU. The MP hookup
: instructions say to dead-end the green wire
: from ECU and use only 4 terminals.
:
: Is there any advantage or disadvantage using a
: dual ballast resistor from the donor car?
:
: Should I use the coil from the donor car?
:
: Will someone please expound on the theory
: behind the dual field alternator and the
: dual ballast resistor?

The early ECU's had 5 pins and used the dual ballast resistor. The later ECU's were redesigned to use 4 pins and a single ballast resistor (or only half of the dual ballast resistor if you use a 4 pin ECU to replace a 5 pin unit).

I'll dig up some more info to post later if someone does not beat me to it.

cfield@ll.net

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Wordinger

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 1:09 pm

Quote:

Check <A HREF="http://www.valiant.org/electrical-diagr ... ms.html</A>

The early electronic regulators needed the external resistor, and it seemed easy for Mopar to make a dual resistor rather than two individual resistors. The newer replacement voltage regulators don't need the external resistor, and so only have four pins on the connector. With these regulators, there is no reason to have a dual resistor.

The older cars with the single terminal alternator had an electromechanical regulator between the battery and the field. The other end of the field windings was grounded to the alternator case. The newer two terminal alternators have battery voltage at one field terminal and the regulator between the other terminal and ground. You can use a newer regulator with the old wiring by just grounding either of the field terminals and connecting the other to the regulator.

For electronic ignition, you want an electronic voltage regulator, not the old electromechanical regulator. Some replacements for the older regulators are electronic, but not all. I'm currently putting a dual terminal alternator in an older truck. I went to NAPA to get a voltage regulator, and the one they had was electromechanical. I went to the local Chrysler dealer. He didn't have the replacement in stock, and didn't know if it was electronic. The Mopar Performance replacement is electronic, and is less expensive than the stock replacement. It is advertised for racing only, but I got it anyway. JC Whitney has an electronic replacement regulator for older alternators. If you use an electronic replacemeant for your older regulator, you don't need to change the wiring.

Dave

dwordinger@earrthlink.net

Top

Reply with quote

Gary

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 6:10 pm

Thanks for the response and links, but I'm still confused about some things.

My '79 Aspen donor car uses a dual ballast and dual field alternator, so does not exactly fit the description of an "old" vehicle with ECU.

If I use parts from this car, is there a functional difference between hooking the 2nd field to the "run" side of the ballast resistor, or simply grounding it at the voltage regulator, as shown in the schematics you referenced?

My interest is in trying to improve low rpm charging, and I thought that was one of the reasons for the dual field alternator.

Would there be any logical reason or functional improvement if I was to rewire the car by incorporating a field-loads relay like the B and C body cars used during the 70's?

lancer_41@excite.com

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Wordinger

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 8:05 pm

Quote:

: My '79 Aspen donor car uses a dual ballast and
: dual field alternator, so does not exactly
: fit the description of an "old"
: vehicle with ECU.

The newer replacement ECUs only have 4 pins and don't use the dual ballast resistor. The Mopar Performance conversion kits use this ECU. I don't know that any cars came from the factory with this newer design ECU and the single ballast resistor.
:
: If I use parts from this car, is there a
: functional difference between hooking the
: 2nd field to the "run" side of the
: ballast resistor, or simply grounding it at
: the voltage regulator, as shown in the
: schematics you referenced?

Good catch! The diagram is incorrect. The added blue wire should go from the field terminal on the alternator to the I terminal on the voltage regulator. In other words, both field terminals on the alternator should go to the voltage regulator; one to the I terminal, and one to the F terminal.
:
: My interest is in trying to improve low rpm
: charging, and I thought that was one of the
: reasons for the dual field alternator.

The newer alternators were higher capacity and should put out more current at all RPMs. You can put a smaller pulley on any alternator to make it turn faster and put out more current at lower engine RPMs

dwordinger@earthlink.net

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Clement

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 5:41 am

Quote:

: The newer replacement ECUs only have 4 pins and
: don't use the dual ballast resistor. The
: Mopar Performance conversion kits use this
: ECU. I don't know that any cars came from
: the factory with this newer design ECU and
: the single ballast resistor.

I do not know when CC made the switch to the 4-pin ECU but there is no lack of 4-pin ECU cars in the junk yard. I collect them as pocket fodder on my junk yard runs. If you are converting a points car to electronic ignition this is the way to go. It only requires that you run on wire from switched 12 volts to the ECU.
:
: Good catch! The diagram is incorrect. The added
: blue wire should go from the field terminal
: on the alternator to the I terminal on the
: voltage regulator. In other words, both
: field terminals on the alternator should go
: to the voltage regulator; one to the I
: terminal, and one to the F terminal.

Nope! When converting to dual field alternator the exisitng green alternator wire connects to the green wire terminal on the electronic voltage regulator. The other terminal connects to switched 12 volts (just like the mechanical reg). You connect the other field terminal on the alternator to switched 12 volts (just splice off the wire you ran for the ECU).
:
: The newer alternators were higher capacity and
: should put out more current at all RPMs. You
: can put a smaller pulley on any alternator
: to make it turn faster and put out more
: current at lower engine RPMs

The dual field alternators were specifically designed to provide more current at lower rpms. Much better solution than trying to spin an older alternator faster.

Hot-rod 6
dave.clement@motorola.com

Top

Reply with quote

Gary

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 8:32 am

Quote:

: Nope! When converting to dual field alternator
: the exisitng green alternator wire connects
: to the green wire terminal on the electronic
: voltage regulator. The other terminal
: connects to switched 12 volts (just like the
: mechanical reg). You connect the other field
: terminal on the alternator to switched 12
: volts (just splice off the wire you ran for
: the ECU).

The factory manual for a '76 valiant shows the wire from the second field going to a splice common to the other voltage regulator terminal and to what the MP instruction sheet calls the "run" side of the ballast resistor. Since it connects to the "IGN" term on the old regulator, is that what you are referring to as "switched 12V"?

lancer_41@excite.com

Top

Reply with quote

Dart270

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 9:21 am

Quote:

: The factory manual for a '76 valiant shows the
: wire from the second field going to a splice
: common to the other voltage regulator
: terminal and to what the MP instruction
: sheet calls the "run" side of the
: ballast resistor. Since it connects to the
: "IGN" term on the old regulator,
: is that what you are referring to as
: "switched 12V"?

Yep, IGN is switched 12V.

I wonder if, in fact, you can run the second field terminal on either GND, 12V, or Volt.reg "Field" terminal and the regulator just compensates, but maybe puts out lower output. Probably the factory manual has the best (most efficient) position. I've heard people give all three sets of advice, and I bet they all work.

Lou

madsenl@its.caltech.edu

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Clement

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 10:50 am

Quote:

Yes, Switched 12V is you have power with the key in the on position. You may or may not with the key in the start position or accessory position.

Hot-Rod 6
dave.clement@motorola.com

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Wordinger

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:26 am

Quote:

You are just using different words to say the same thing. The Ignition terminal on the voltage regulator is connected to the Ignition or Run terminal on the ballast resistor, so electrically these points are all the same.

dwordinger@earrthlink.net

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Clement

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:28 am

Quote:

: Yep, IGN is switched 12V.
:
: I wonder if, in fact, you can run the second
: field terminal on either GND, 12V, or
: Volt.reg "Field" terminal and the
: regulator just compensates, but maybe puts
: out lower output. Probably the factory
: manual has the best (most efficient)
: position. I've heard people give all three
: sets of advice, and I bet they all work.

Chances are if you go to the parts store and purchase an alternator for a pre-70 CC product you will get the dual field unit. There will be a note in the box stating that for 69 and older cars you ground one of the field terminals to the alternator frame. There are detail differences between the single field and dual field alternators but the basic designs are the same. It's just that the single field had one end of the field windings tied to ground through the alternator frame with the regulator switching voltages on an off to the field terminal to control the output to the battery. The dual field design has switched 12 volts to one end of the field winding and the regulator switched the other end to ground. The switched 12v blue wire on the dual field electronic regulator is voltage to power the regulator only, the green wire is switched to ground through the housing of the regulator.

You can't mix and match connections but the dual field alternator can be used in either application if you wire it corectly. There are also electronic regulators that are designed to work in either application but they are not interchangable.

I have read any number of reasons why you should upgrade the mechanical regulator charging system to electronic when switching to electronic ignition. The only one that makes any sense to me is that there is a potential that the spikes and electrical noise generated by mechanical contacts opening and closing can cause problems with the ECU. I wouldn't go swaping to the dual field alternator just because I am upgrading to electronic ignition. Just purchase a electronic voltage regulator for the single field system.

Hot-Rod 6
dave.clement@motorola.com

Top

Reply with quote

Dart270

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 12:00 pm

Quote:

: Chances are if you go to the parts store and
: purchase an alternator for a pre-70 CC
: product you will get the dual field unit.
: There will be a note in the box stating that
: for 69 and older cars you ground one of the
: field terminals to the alternator frame.
: There are detail differences between the
: single field and dual field alternators but
: the basic designs are the same. It's just
: that the single field had one end of the
: field windings tied to ground through the
: alternator frame with the regulator
: switching voltages on an off to the field
: terminal to control the output to the
: battery. The dual field design has switched
: 12 volts to one end of the field winding and
: the regulator switched the other end to
: ground. The switched 12v blue wire on the
: dual field electronic regulator is voltage
: to power the regulator only, the green wire
: is switched to ground through the housing of
: the regulator.
:
: You can't mix and match connections but the
: dual field alternator can be used in either
: application if you wire it corectly. There
: are also electronic regulators that are
: designed to work in either application but
: they are not interchangable.
:
: I have read any number of reasons why you
: should upgrade the mechanical regulator
: charging system to electronic when switching
: to electronic ignition. The only one that
: makes any sense to me is that there is a
: potential that the spikes and electrical
: noise generated by mechanical contacts
: opening and closing can cause problems with
: the ECU. I wouldn't go swaping to the dual
: field alternator just because I am upgrading
: to electronic ignition. Just purchase a
: electronic voltage regulator for the single
: field system.

Thanks Dave. That all makes sense. I've never switched a car over, just using the older style with solid-state guts and dual field alt.

Cheers,

Lou

madsenl@its.caltech.edu

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Clement

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 12:05 pm

Quote:

: You are just using different words to say the
: same thing. The Ignition terminal on the
: voltage regulator is connected to the
: Ignition or Run terminal on the ballast
: resistor, so electrically these points are
: all the same.

Opps! miss read your post. I interpreted it as two connections from the alternator to the regulator, not that the Blue (or "I") was also swiched 12V.

Dave

Hot-Rod 6
dave.clement@motorola.com

Top

Reply with quote

Dave Wordinger

Post subject: Re: Electronic ignition, etc

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 1:03 pm

Quote:

: Opps! miss read your post. I interpreted it as
: two connections from the alternator to the
: regulator, not that the Blue (or
: "I") was also swiched 12V.

I don't mean to continue beating a dead horse, but we need to be clear for someone trying to follow these directions.

On an older car with the single field alternator, the easy way to convert is to use an electronic replacement for the original electromechanical voltage regulator, as I said in my original post, and others have reiterated since then.

If you are converting to a newer alternator with the two field connections and the newer design voltage regulator with the two pin plug, both field terminals are connected to the voltage regulator, one to each pin on the regulator plug. One field terminal is connected to the F(ield) pin on the voltage regulator. The other field terminal is connected to the I(gnition) pin on the voltage regulator, and also connected to the run side of the ballast resistor and to the bulkhead disconnect. It doesn't matter how these four points are connected, or at where you tie the wires together. Since this is the ignition circuit, it is switched, with the ignition key obviously.

If anyone cares, the opposite end of the ballast resistor is the start position. When the ignition switch is in Start, battery voltage is connected to this end of the resistor. There is also a wire from the start end of the ballast resistor to the distributor, so it gets full voltage durring start. The voltage regulator and alternator field get a reduced voltage durring start, but you arn't using the alternator to charge anything while starting the engine so it doesn't matter.

Dave

dwordinger@earrthlink.net

Top

Reply with quote

Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.

Page 1 of 2

[ 18 posts ]

Go to page 1 2 Next

Home » Board index » Tech Q & A » Old Message Board

All times are UTC-08:00

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum