I went to Mavis twice trying to get my 72 Valiant aligned. (I lowered the front end slightly but it has just a little bit more negative camber than I really want) All I want is for them to align it as close to spec as possible, I know they weren't meant to be lowered but the stock camber adjustability should allow for just a bit less negative camber.

They told me they can't do anything without all the specs, caster, camber, and toe all in degrees...

Sounds to me like they just don't know how to use the machine when it's not preset in their database of cars..
Can anyone chime in with any advice?

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19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"

book specs

camber

L +1/2 +- 1/4 preferred +1/2
R +1/4 +- 1/4 preferred +1/4

caster

manual -1 to 0 preferred -1/2
power +1/4 to +1 1/4 preferred +3/4


toe (inches, you can do the math to convert to degrees)

3/8 +- 5/32

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Thanks so much! So 1/2 would be .5 degrees correct? Or is there a conversion rate to metric degrees or something. Sorry, know almost nothing about suspension specs I only know how to replace parts haha

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19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"

yes, 1/2 = .5

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Ed
64 Valiant 225 / 904 / 42:1 manual steering / 9" drum brakes

Thanks so much Emsvitil!

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19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"

MoreDoorVal:
[quote]So 1/2 would be .5 degrees correct? [/quote]


emsvitil:
[quote]yes, 1/2 = .5[/quote]


Toe explained [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_(automotive)]here[/url].


I'm not clear on converting inch of toe to degrees of toe as listed above; it's not a straight fraction to decimal conversion to determine angular measurement. Where inches are the difference between front or leading centerline of treads and how much they are cocked to or away from each other in relation to centerline.

Perhaps one would take radius of tire and preferred toe distance in inches and calculate the angle.

Say for example tire has a 26 inch diameter or 13 inch radius, and preferred toe is 1/8 inch.

Calculate what angle would be for both extremes of toe distance, and preferred.

My 67 gives toe as 3/32â€￾ to 5/32â€￾ where 1/8â€￾ is preferred.

Using this angular calculator for right triangles one can figure out max, min, and preferred angles of toe. I will just calculate preferred angle in this example below:


Enter 1/8 inch as 1 divided by 8 = 0.125â€￾ for side (a)

Enter radius of tire from example 13â€￾ for side (b)

90 degrees is angle (c) and we are looking for angle (a) the little one.

Three decimal places are more than enough, round angle to two decimal places for the front end guy.

Find angular calculator [url=http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html]here[/url].


Your front end guy could look at a 76 Dart, or even a newer Aspin for a toe angle. Also a 72 spec is for bias ply tire, not radials, so a later model year would be more useful if you are running radials. Ask how far back his settings go; A body front ends are all the same to 1976 which is about the time when radial tires became standard equipment.


Just my 2 cents:
Lowering front end can open a whole can of worms for alignment setting problems, and handling & ride quality which varies from car to car. All I'm going to say is factory settings (see exception below*) seem to work best over the long haul, its your front end, your tires, and your rear in front seat absorbing any contact with bump stops; do as you please. LOL

* More then stock caster setting is preferred up to the +3 degree range.

Somewhere there is a listing of various front end settings for differing set-ups, stock to full road race settings, in the form of a little chart. I can't find it at the moment, but I'm sure someone will post it for your viewing pleasure.

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67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Thanks for the clarification! Yeah I'll be honest suspension specs are really a foreign language to me, but this does help, and in sure next time I bring it in they'll be able to use these specs instead of scratching their heads.

Good point on the radials too! Wouldn't have ever thought of that.

It is lowered quite a good bit, I changed the bump stops out for poly ones...and cut them a bit as well. It sucks when I hit a big pot hole, but I have not encountered a single negative side effect besides the occasional rough bump. Actually on the contrary, it seems to corner much neater now with less roll.

Plus I just personally like lowered cars.

That being said I know it's no "low rider" or road race car, but I am going to upgrade to 1.03 torsion bars QA1 shocks and possibly factory sway bars if I can find some.

I just want the alignment as close to spec as possible in the mean time so I don't eat through te insides of the tires. (They're Radial TAs)

The guy before me shelled out a pretty penny for those ad I'd hate to ruin em pre maturely.

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19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"

Excessive (much more than -1/2) negative camber (top of tire tilting in to engine) will eat tire edges real fast on these cars. Factory camber setting left is zero to +1/2; right +1/4 to +3/4 inch on my 67. Once again these are bias ply settings, a radial can tolerate settings tending to negative better. If you use typical camber settings found on today's cars you will be buying new tires a lot more often, but the car will handle better in the corners.

One inch torsion bars will alleviate some of the bump stop pounding, but they are no remedy for factory designed suspension travel that allows all that rigging to follow an undulating road surface off the bump stops.

Realize when suspension is loaded resting on bump stop it no longer is a functioning suspension, but a sold non yielding contact between road and frame/body of car; in other words a 19th century un-sprung buckboard for that instant. Ask Hoss Cartwight how well Pa's buckboard handled at speed, but be mindful these guys advertised Chevys back in the day... handling discourse may not be their bailiwick.

There is a ton of information on the web that is helpful on getting a handle on the how and why of suspension settings I have found to be helpful in building my basic automotive acumen over the years.

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67' Dart GT Convertible; the old Chrysler Corp.
82' LeBaron Convertible; the new Chrysler Corp
07' 300 C AWD; Now by Fiat, the old new Chrysler LLC

Thanks both! I'm actually going to raise the car halfway back up (equally on both sides obviously) and get new poly bump stops (as I cut mine ) because I'm going to be putting long tube headers on it and fully plan on driving it all day everyday this summer and fall. But I am going to need a big time alignment once I tear into the suspension with what I have planned, and this is going to help so much.

The plans:
SPT 1.03 Torsion bars

Disc brake UCAs

10 inch spindles (Fatman 2" Drop spindles for Christmas? )

Stock 1 piston calipers with good pads and dimpled and slotted rotors

Full suspension rebush/rebuild with all Moog part

New ball joints/tyerods

Adco swaybar (maybe)

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19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"

I recommend that you not align to factory specs. The reason for the recommendation is to take advantage of radial tires.
I have gone to + 2º caster, -.75º camber, and 1/16" toe-in. The results: Increased steering effort (w/PS), decreased steering centering action, and significantly sharpened steering turn-in.

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You can't fix stupid. - Ron White

Thanks 2 Darts! Now I know exactly what to tell te alignment guy who barely speaks English

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19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"

I have found very good results on more than one car with the specs that 2 Darts posted. I would say +1 to +2 deg caster and -0.5 to -0.75 deg camber (match side to side, but anywhere in those ranges are good). I have not found excessive tire wear using these settings.

Lou

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Home of Slant6-powered fun machines since 1988

Can anyone recommend some good web reading on this subject?
Any alignment specific sites that would give explanations for any changes you might want to make?

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Mattelderca
78 NYB (gone now), two S series, three old Snow Cruisers and a Doo.

270 thanks for your input too! I'm going to go this week to have it done, my other car I going up for sale soon and I want to start putting some real miles on the car without worrying about my $150 a piece tire (JEEZ!) I'm glad I wasn't the one to foot the bill for them, and white letter radials really aren't my thing, but everyone else seems to love em.

I'll be going to a different shop this time, I'm 19 an I felt like I was more mature and knowledgeable than the 3 techs I talked to at Mavis...

Hopefully it'll help the car handle a bit better and track smoother on bumpy roads. The 1.03 bars and new shocks will be ordered soon too.

In my search for factory specs or any alignment info on our cars I really came up dry. A quick google search of caster, camber or toe will give some reputable sites that explain in detail what each means, how it is measured, and possibly examples of modern car or race applications.

_________________
19 Years young with a passion for all things old.

"Four doors for more....screaming passangers..(;"

"There's no replacement for displacement, but my \6 is still cooler than your V8"