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Water Pump Question
https://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=63335		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Hamlet [ Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Water Pump Question
Hi Slant 6’ers! New here. Quick question about replacement water pump for my 74 Dart 225. I have a brand new Gates pump with a pressed steel fin impeller. I’ve seen sturdier components. Or, I could put in a Mopar original cast no 2128284, supposedly rebuilt, which has a cast impeller. It is a slightly older pump I believe as it has the curved line in the casting below the weep hole. So, my question is... which is better for my Dart? I’m doing the water pump, all hoses, belts and alternator. She runs fine, just a few drops of coolant following an extended run. Any advice would be appreciated! Hamlet
Author:  Rick Covalt [ Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
Put in a new pump. As cheap as they are, don't get a remanufactured one either. Forget about he lfetime warranty on the rebuilds too! Who want to do the job over? Not me.
Author:  GregCon [ Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
I agree, avoid rebuilts when possible.

I am sure the stamped fin vanes will be fine. The sad truth is...the cooling circuits and systems of the older engines like the Slant 6 aren't very scientific. I think you could make the vanes out of an aged cheddar and the engine wouldn't know the difference.

Modern engines have had much more development put into them in this regard. Just for fun...a friend had a 2002 Ford minivan with a 3.8L V6. It ran perfectly cool, even in Houston summers which are impossible to describe the miserable heat unless you've lived here. But, one winter the heater stopped working. After the usual troubleshooting, we determined it wasn't working because there was no water flow - and Ford minivan heaters, of course, use flowing hot water. The engine ran fine - just no heater.

So, we endeavoured to replace the water pump and sure enough, the heater worked fine thereafter. As luck would have it, there was in fact no water flow. Don't believe me? Here's the pump:

Attachments:
3.8L Ford water pump.jpg
3.8L Ford water pump.jpg [ 55.74 KiB | Viewed 10090 times ]
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
Rebuilt American pump with the better impeller and the bearing drain hole splash shield versus cheap Chinese new pump: easy pick: the rebuilt American pump.

And twice on Sunday.
Author:  GregCon [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
The problem with rebuilt pumps is....they are usually rebuilt by Chinese children under the age of 7 using Chinese bearings and seals.

Actually, the problem is twofold - the person doing the rebuild is most often an unskilled laborer making minimum wage. The quality of their work is minimal as well.

The second fold is many water pumps fail and in the process 'wallow out' the bore that hold the bearing cartridge, either by corrosion or wobbling or both. When they rebuild the pump, no effort is made to restore the orignal bore ID and you're starting out with a loose fit from Day One. You pays your money and you takes your chances....
Author:  sixinthehead [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
I think that picture of the Furd pump well illustrates both the folly of sheetmetal impellers and the need for regular cooling system maintenance.
I would use the rebuilt pump without hesitation.
Author:  GregCon [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
The Ford pump definitely shows the need for cooling system maintenance. The previous owner had run pure garden hose water for years.

As for the stamped impellers - they'll last forever if run in a proper cooling system that has anti-freeze in it. Cast iron? It rusts too.

And of course big blocks...Hemi's...and small blocks all left the factory with stamped impellers, too.
Author:  sixinthehead [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
Bean counters, planned obsolescence, inexperienced engineers, etc.
Corporations make lots of bad decisions.
Any time I have a choice, I will take advantage of superior engineering instead of settling for 'good enough'.
I have never seen an iron impeller missing any vanes, rusty though it may be.
Author:  GregCon [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
If you're rusting vanes...you got bigger problems than the water pump.
Author:  emsvitil [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
The plastic impellor may be more hydrodynamic...……


:wink:
Author:  Louise76 [ Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
American pump rebuilt by China, or new pump built by China. As said, "ya pays your money, ya takes your chances." Two good opinions. My 2 cents.
By the way Hamlet- new thermostat for sure, 195 degree F. And gasket. And seal the bottom outlet housing's bolt threads. Welcome to the Forum.
Author:  DadTruck [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
shipping core water pumps all the way to China for a rebuild,, possible, but some business experience says there is not enough value added in rebuilds to make a couple of cross country trips and two trans Pacific trips and still make money.

I searched for the warehouse and manufacturing locations for A1 Cardone

Cardone is probably the largest parts rebuilder for vehicles sold in the US.

Headquarters:Philadelphia PA

Warehouse: Dallus TX, Los Angels CA, Toronto CA, Edmonton CA,

Facilities (manufacturing sites): Philadelphia PA, Harlingen TX, Brownsville TX, Matamoros MX

So they do claim a facility in Mexico. The other three are in the USA. It is possible that the warehouse in the City of Angles receives some new stock from China,
but I bet that is the seals, bearings and other new components that go into their rebuild parts.

New replacement parts, now the manufacturer is only shipping the product one way,
that could be a mix of components sourced from China, or India, or Taiwan, or even Canada or the USA.
Author:  GregCon [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 6:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
I wouldn't run any 60's Mopar at 195F

On rebuilds, they (whether it's China or Mexico or LA) receive cores and run them all through a cleaning process if they pass the first very fast visual inspection. After cleaning, they 'rebuild' them with a bearing cartridge (seals, bearings) and press on an impeller and out the door they go. There's not a lot of QA.

If you consider the price they charge for a rebuilt pump - let's say $29 - then you factor in the cost of labor, parts, facility, transportation, and the retailer markup, you pretty quickly realize there is no way they can be doing much to the pump itself. It's a numbers game....they know a certain percentage will be faulty and that's why they offer what are often pretty generous warranties. That 'business model' is the same that many very successful* auto repair shops use.

*Success being defined as the owner makes a lot of money and has a2019 4WD Chevy 3/4 ton with 8" lift, full wrap and leather seats. Not defined as quality work at an honest price.
Author:  SlantSixDan [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
Quote:
The problem with rebuilt pumps is....they are usually rebuilt by Chinese children under the age of 7 using Chinese bearings and seals.
A pump as described by the OP ('60s Mopar housing, cast impeller) was almost certainly rebuilt decades ago, in America, when China was not yet in the business of making trinkets shaped like auto parts.
Quote:
I wouldn't run any 60's Mopar at 195F
Read this.
Quote:
Cardone
100% garbage. Never buy.
Author:  GregCon [ Sun Feb 24, 2019 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Water Pump Question
If the pump was rebuilt that long ago...the seals are probably getting bad by now.


The problem with Smokey Yunick's assertion is...compound.

First, he is ignoring all the usual (and real) effects we see as a result of detonation. A hotter running engine is just that much closer to detonation. I'm not so sure about northern areas, but in the South, running a little cooler is only gonna help.

Second, Smokey was a highly respected dude - but his adiabatic engine never was proven to work. He died with that still under wraps, and his test model left a lot of unanswered questions. Kinda like the guy who invents a perpetual motion machine but never demonstrates it without a power cord running into it. The biggest issue was ---obvious and audible detonation ---which he dismissed as 'some loose and rattling exhaust brackets'. Smokey did expert level work so the idea that he would have anything with loose brackets doesn't hold much water.

Smokey knew tons but on this topic he was called out by a lot of experts and he never acquitted himself.

Third, I've read (no longer recall where) that Mopar developed the cast iron for their engines based on the lowest wear characteristics to occur at 180 degrees. Colder - higher wear. Hotter - higher wear.
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