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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:01 pm 
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I'm a suspension newbie, so don't laugh if the question seems pathetic ;)

When taking a corner at 20ish or more mph, I hear the tires peel out for a short time towards the end of the corner. Pretty sure they are the rears. What is this a sign of? Need different tires? Springs? Shocks? Or is this unavoidable because the rear of the car is trying to wrap itself around the front due to momentum?

The suspension is all stock, 71 duster. Rear springs are sagging and I tend to replace them eventually, but was curious if this could be caused by something else.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:23 am 
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The law of gravity will try to push the car outwards with a certain g-force,..
I'm not really familiar with it, but I know almost for sure some new springs will fix this for you, they will push your tires towards the pavement more, providing better grip. Lowering the height of your car also helps, but I don't think you'd want to do that.
Wider tires seem to help you get better grip, but I'm still not realy convinced, because there is less pressure per squire inch on the road, but on the other hand, there are more inch2 touching the road,.. hmmm,.. Do you know what I mean? A car has a certain weight which is transfered to the road via 4 wheels, when the wheels are small there is more pressure per squire inch than with wider tires,.. at what point will it make a difference :?
Btw, how's the profile on your tires?

My drivability improved greatly when I mounted airshocks ( Gabriel) under it, when I removed the old springs I noticed they weren't working at all. :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:27 am 
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Hmm, I'm not sure if there is less pressure per unit area of tire. A wider tire will contain a bigger volume of air, assuming the same internal pressure of a smaller tire, so that would balance pressure exerted per unit area on the inside, right?

Stiffer springs and wider tires may grab better, but eventually isn't there a point of no return to where if your turning sharp/fast enough the g forces from the acceleration will make the rear end swing out? If the tires grab so well that the rear doesn't swing, such style driving may cause one to loose the inner axle right?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:23 am 
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You probably have Michelin tires. Every one I've ever owned has made noise when turning corners or even under light acceleration. After they get a few miles, they howl under all conditions.

The dealer replaced the hub bearings on my wife's Sebring convertible because he thought no tire could be that noisy. The problem was resolved when I replaced the tires with Coopers.

They are also useless in snow.

Did I mention I hate Michelins?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:56 am 
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It could also be a sign your rear tire pressure is really low

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:55 am 
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Err, I should have been more clear. By squeak, I meant like it was slipping and loosing traction, just as if you were pealing out. I know its not a bearing noise for sure, just the tire loosing traction and slipping.

They aren't michelins, I forgot what brand, from sears, few years ago it was $225 IIRC for 4 tires, complete works, mount balance alignment etc. I got a refund for the alignment because it came off the rack and they couldn't get the height adjustments right, left was about 6" lower then right.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:53 pm 
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Michelin used to make many of the Sears brand tires.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:02 pm 
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I believe the way it works is that you take the weight of the car, say 3000 lb, divide by the TP in psi, say 30psi and that gives you 100 sq inches. Divide that by four tires and you have 25 sq in per tire, which gives you a "patch" of about 3x8.

But that assumes equal loading on all wheels. If your suspension is off and a lot of weight is transferred off one rear wheel, its patch gets really small and breaks loose (presuming an open differential; sure-grip/LSD would transfer the force to the other wheel).

Wider tires have a shorter (front to back) patch. Lower pressures give you a larger patch, which is why you let air out to run on sand or mud. Higher pressures give you more load capacity, which is why load-carrying trucks run higher pressures.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:50 pm 
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I would look into your alignment problems more closely. I'm assuming you meant 6mm rather than 6" but it is possible either something is worn and keeps shifting, preventing an alignment adjustment from staying in place or the frame was straightened improperly after a collision. I would also question the abilities of the technician performing the alignment, as they seemingly made no effort to diagnose the reason for the failed alignment. Does the noise occur on both a left and a right bank at speed?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:09 pm 
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No, I meant 6". There was no way I was driving the car around like that for long. One front tire came real close to rubbing the fender. I was afraid of even driving it somewhere else. Took it to a goodyear after I came back from sears to redo the alignment and all was well.

Btw, the new tires went on and the alignment issue was years ago, nothing recent. The guy doing the alignment at sears was still in highschool and probably never saw a car this old before. Don't blame him. He told me that I needed new springs because one of them was weaker then the other, hence why the car was tilted. :roll: Had to argue with him that (at that time) the springs were fine and they finally gave me my alignment money back. Another clue as to why the guy didn't know what he was doing: he was measuring the alignment height between the rocker panel and the lift, matching it up on each side. But when the care came off the lift you could put a marble on the seat and it would slide ....


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:59 pm 
To the one that bashed Michelin tires... you are one of the very few that I have ever heard bash Michelin :? ... I sell and install a bunch of them, most are amazed at the long life, good ride and handling that they give. I have em on all 3 of my drivers... a Wrangler, a Dakota, and a Diplomat... and am hoping that they come back out with a sporty raised white letter tire before my Volare is done!
Now for overpriced garbage that slip and slide with the slightest amount of morning dew, quick go waste your $$$ on a set of Goodyears!
We sell 8 different brands of tire, and Michelin is one, Goodyear isn't, we order them as needed. Also as an alignment guy, I have way less problems with Michelins causing radial tire pull, where I have to rotate the tires around to eliminate a pull, happens with new as well as used tires, once the alignment is correctly set and loose parts are replaced, of course! :shock: :wink:
Now, onto Sears... :evil: That is a sore spot every time I hear that word... :evil: fired for the only time in my life from that place.... after busting my a$$ for 13 of my 36 years thats how they show their appreciation... Know what I did that was so bad?? I'm a criminal, a big thief, I took 2 JUNK tires out of the SCRAP pile... they do not sell used tires, they have to pay a huge $$$ to have them hauled away to be recycled. But they Fired me for taking 2 out of the scrap destined for a project truck that I was working on, not even licensed or insured, all I wanted was a pair that would hold air til I got around to pulling/rebuilding the trans, basically canned for garbage picking, nothing that had not been going on for years before I ever started there. They have a double standard as far as rules, those in the click and those not. Those not, get held to every letter of every rule that was ever created, those in, told the bosses what to do instead of teh reverse... Now, I never even go in there.... My remaining Crapsman tools bust, they go into the garbage. They lost their only Master certified tech at that location, as well as a previously good customer.. The worst part, the day after Christmas! As far as their tires, They are made by many companies, Michelin, Cooper, Goodyear, Kelly, Firestone, Bridgestone, and others, depending on which tire you pick. Some of their guys are really good, others, I wonder what street corner that they found em on, couldn't even fix a bicycle. Be sure wherever you go, that you know the guy working on your car! Going to the closest place on account of convenience can cost ya dearly on that count.
As far as tire brands, one thing that don't matter about size, brand, or speed rating, If you don't keep up on your alignment, air pressure, or rotation schedule, especially on front heavy FWD cars, they will cup, chop, and get noisey fairly quick. THAT is not the tire's fault. Thought this might help those that don't know, you need to rotate about every OTHER oil change to prevent that. Also once they get over about 5 years old and start dry rotting, the rubbet gets hard and loses its flexibility and grip.
One more thing; I am sorry to steal your thread, but you mentioned sears and it sent me into convulsions. didn't mean to steal your thunder.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:51 pm 
first check tire pressure. This is usually the cause. If not check out the suspension. check the rearend. Make sure that it isnt binding around turns and dragging a wheel. Check tire wear on all 4 tires. look for any unusual wear patterns.As far as tire brands go every manufacturer has its good and its junk and usually a lot in the middle.While it is in my opinion best to stay with a bigger name brand do not judge a tire by the brand name alone.Thsi is the dumbest thing you can do when tire shopping.
That said the worst tires I have sold over the years are firestone firehawk ss20's,goodyear integrity's,pirrelli scorpions and anything with the starfire name on it. And as far as overpriced goes don is right goodyear wins that award.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:29 pm 
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Nobody has suggested slowing down yet.... ;)

Does this happen on tight, 90* corners (intersections) only, or do they sqeal on any corner?

Is this an open diff or a sure-grip? If its a sure grip--there's your answer. (The inner tire is rolling faster than you are moving = squeal)

Tires: In my experience, the wider the tread, the more squeal you get on corners (take a paper towel roll and roll it on the ground...it goes straight. The only way to make it turn is to make the outer and/or inner edges 'skid'....same with wide tires on pavement, except the tires will squeal)

I am not a big fan of Michelins myself. The 2 different sets I have had (mid 90's) were terrible on ice, wet pavement, dry pavement, and gravel. I also did not get more than 25k miles out of either set. Never again. I have nearly 35k on my Cooper Cobras (performance street tires w/ NO mileage gaurantee!), and only the rears are nearing the end of their useful life, and they have outstanding wet/dry pavement traction, and are not bad for a street tire on ice and gravel. My .02

-S/6


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:18 pm 
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It is a regular 2.76 open differential 7 1/4"

I haven't done any thorough testing but so far I have only noticed it on wider turns, but thats probably because I have only gone that fast on them.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 5:40 pm 
Mine does this too, in tight turns. I've always attributed it to (as Volaredon points out) older, hardened tires acting on hot pavement-when the chirp is from the inside tire, or the position of the accelerator relative to the action of the clutch when it's the outside tire :o
Maybe it's time to take a closer look at those springs.


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